MMS #108 - Out-Performing in a Digital-First World: Tactical Sales Strategies with David Brock

[00:00:01] Welcome to Mastering Modern Selling, relationships, social and AI in the buyer-centric age. Join host Brandon Lee, founder of Fistbump, alongside Microsoft's number one social seller Carson V Heady and Tom Burton, author of The Revenue Zone and co-founder of LeadSmart, as we explore the strategies and stories behind successful executives and sales professionals.

[00:00:24] Dive into business growth, personal development, and the pursuit of excellence with industry leaders. Whether you're a seasoned executive or an aspiring leader, this podcast is your backstage pass to today's business landscape. This is Mastering Modern Selling, brought to you by Fistbump.

[00:00:49] All right, we're back for episode number 108, Mastering Modern Selling. Tom Burton, Carson V Heady, and Christy sitting in for Brandon today.

[00:01:00] We have high expectations for you, Christy.

[00:01:04] Always.

[00:01:05] I rise to every occasion like this. Everybody loves pressure.

[00:01:08] Indeed.

[00:01:09] And yet another amazing guest, Dave Brock. Dave, welcome.

[00:01:13] Oh, thank you. It's a pleasure to participate in this. It's such a distinguished crowd, more distinguished than most of the crowds I hang out with.

[00:01:23] So...

[00:01:24] Well, there you go.

[00:01:25] I'm probably downing the level of distinguished.

[00:01:28] Well, I wasn't distinguishing between individuals. Collectively, it's very distinguished. But Carson, you and I just kind of drag it down.

[00:01:39] That's clear to learn.

[00:01:42] Carson's got his coat on today, so I feel a little bit underdressed, you know?

[00:01:46] Yeah.

[00:01:47] Hey, so...

[00:01:47] I'm in a session to be here. That's how much I wanted to learn from Dave and Christy today.

[00:01:54] Okay. Expectations are high. So, hey, before we start, I want to... I know Brandon's not here today. He's traveling.

[00:02:02] But I want to thank Fistbump, again, for their sponsorship and for everything that they do to put this show together.

[00:02:09] I wanted to give... Also, kind of an update is there is a upcoming webinar on October 31st that Fistbump is doing with Mark Hunter.

[00:02:21] Mark Hunter, Carson, I know you've been on... I don't know, Christy, if you've been on with Mark or not, but he's been together a few different times here.

[00:02:28] And they're going to really get into some much deeper sales insights, all of that. The webinar is October 31st at 3 p.m.

[00:02:38] And it's scary. It's scary how...

[00:02:40] It's going to be scary. You have to come in costume. I forgot to mention that.

[00:02:45] I'm going to dress up as a salesman, so...

[00:02:50] And plaid socks. That'd be good.

[00:02:54] And anyway, so the title of the webinar is going to be Turn Your Next Trade Show into a Profit Generating Powerhouse.

[00:03:02] Wow.

[00:03:02] Oh, I love that. I love that.

[00:03:04] That sounds great. So they're going to be getting into strategies on how to maximize trade show ROI, fill your pipeline.

[00:03:10] Anyway, you're not going to want to miss it. October 31st, 3 p.m., bring your costume. All right.

[00:03:17] Awesome. Tom, can we put the link to that in the chat at some point?

[00:03:20] You know, maybe she can. I don't know how to do that because I don't know that we can do that for her.

[00:03:26] Love your pay grade. I get it. I love your pay grade. Don't worry.

[00:03:29] It looks like... Anyway, so yes, the chat's running. Bob's here. Welcome, Bob. Good to see you as always.

[00:03:38] So, Dave, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background.

[00:03:43] You're the founder of Partners in Excellence, but tell us a little bit.

[00:03:49] You know, it looks like you have a long background in sales and sales coaching.

[00:03:53] That's a very polite way of saying I'm an old part.

[00:03:57] But anyway, I started my career in selling with IBM, selling large mainframe computers to money center banks in New York City.

[00:04:08] Went up the food chain, ran a division.

[00:04:16] And then went to do another. I established kind of my reputation in IBM as being a turnaround guy.

[00:04:27] They would send me into troubled divisions or business units and have me turn it around.

[00:04:32] I left IBM and went to do a number of turnarounds for technology companies, either as CRO or CEO.

[00:04:42] And wanted to find a way to systematize that.

[00:04:45] And so in the early 90s, I established the consulting company.

[00:04:50] And today we're about 15 people scattered around the globe.

[00:04:55] All of us are kind of refugees of senior positions in very large companies.

[00:05:02] Our target markets are probably, I'd say, global 500 to 750 companies, primarily in technology, professional services and industrial products.

[00:05:16] Dave, do you, you know, coming from IBM and I'll date myself to one of my first jobs out of college was working on a mainframe with a green screen.

[00:05:26] So, but coming from IBM, are you, do you work mostly with larger like enterprise type customers or is there smaller companies, startups?

[00:05:37] What's kind of the range?

[00:05:38] It's kind of difficult to answer that question.

[00:05:43] 80% of our revenue comes from global 500 corporations.

[00:05:50] Probably 60% of our, probably 50% of our projects come from very early stage companies.

[00:05:59] So those tend to be very small, very focused projects, really helping people try to figure out their routes to market, their go to market strategies, helping them figure out how to scale or helping them figure out how to make the company work.

[00:06:14] So we have a number of very big projects with very big companies and then lots of little projects with startup companies.

[00:06:26] And I really enjoyed that because in the startup world, we get to experiment with a lot of new ideas.

[00:06:33] And then what we do is we say, how can we take those ideas and introduce them and help large companies innovate in their go to market strategies?

[00:06:45] Interesting.

[00:06:46] Yeah.

[00:06:46] And I think we'll get into this because obviously probably the things you do with the smaller companies and what you're doing coaching and with the larger companies, there's probably some overlap, but again, probably differences as well.

[00:06:58] Okay.

[00:06:59] It looks like I got, we got a message from Bob here that we were frozen.

[00:07:05] Hopefully if you're on.

[00:07:06] We're just sitting really still.

[00:07:08] So maybe that's it.

[00:07:09] Yeah.

[00:07:09] We'll sit really quietly here.

[00:07:11] But if you're on and we are moving and you are hearing us, let us know because I don't know if we're frozen for everybody or not, but we're moving here.

[00:07:21] So that's good.

[00:07:23] So Carson Christie, where should we start with Dave?

[00:07:26] I know we have a lot of questions here to kind of kick off.

[00:07:29] Any place you want to get started?

[00:07:30] I want to hear more of like compare and contrast, you know, like obviously Dave coming up in the IBM world and then contrasting into where we are today from a sales perspective.

[00:07:41] You know, what are some of the fundamentals that will never change?

[00:07:44] But then what are you seeing as some of the nuances that we really need to uncover and understand to master today's sales landscape?

[00:07:53] Well, I think the fundamental, the underlying principles of what we do as sellers remain constant, you know, and they go back decades even, you know, probably since Eve sold Adam the first apple.

[00:08:10] That was an easy sale.

[00:08:13] But yeah, but anyway, is the fundamental principles around how do we find what are the problems we're the best in the world at solving?

[00:08:25] How do we find the customers who have those problems?

[00:08:28] And how do we engage them in thinking about their business differently and help them solve the problems?

[00:08:35] So that's the fundamental principles.

[00:08:37] How we apply those principles has evolved over time.

[00:08:42] It's evolved over time as industries and markets have changed.

[00:08:46] It's evolved over time as technology has changed.

[00:08:50] And we leverage new tools to engage our customers in ways that were never before thought of and all.

[00:08:58] But the underlying principles of find a customer with a problem that you can solve and help them solve it remain constant.

[00:09:09] Dave, as we've been talking about, you know, as we got into the technology and I and the guys know that I've been on a little bit of a soapbox about we've been leaning too heavily into the science of sales.

[00:09:20] And so obviously this is why you're here today, right?

[00:09:23] To talk a little bit about that.

[00:09:23] But how do we how can we get I feel like we're a little out of balance between the art of sales and the science of sales.

[00:09:29] So how can we get a little more in balance or how can we take that science of sales, the data driven, the AI, all of the all the tools that we now have we didn't have before.

[00:09:39] But how can we make that a little a little more balanced with the artists without losing the art of sales and the you know and all of the things that go along with that?

[00:09:50] So I think we need to start asking ourselves some slightly different questions is as we look at all these technologies and particularly as we look at AI right now, I'm doing a huge amount in AI.

[00:10:05] And I think we ask ourselves the wrong questions.

[00:10:10] It's we ask ourselves we focus on what I can do and how it helps us be more productive, how it helps eliminate kind of administrative type tasks and all those things, how it helps us research, engage, maybe write content, all those sorts of things.

[00:10:28] We aren't asking ourselves the question of what can't AI do.

[00:10:34] And we aren't saying, can we do the things that AI can't do?

[00:10:39] And what you find is AI can't do enormous things.

[00:10:44] AI can't tell you the context of what a person is facing right now.

[00:10:51] You know, we know Carson is facing all sorts of stuff right now.

[00:10:56] And AI can't deal with that.

[00:11:00] It's the human being and our ability to connect, however difficult it might be with Carson, but to connect with Carson in a very effective way to understand what's happening to him.

[00:11:15] How does he feel about what's happening in the business?

[00:11:18] What's happening maybe in this buying cycle and so on.

[00:11:22] And so I think we ask ourselves the wrong questions.

[00:11:27] And what we're doing is we're focusing on coming up with the easy answers, which really kind of remove the human being from the process.

[00:11:37] And the most critical things our customers are asking us for, the most critical gaps that all the research shows us is it's that human connection.

[00:11:48] It's what's happening to you now?

[00:11:52] What's the context that you're living in and how can I help you with that?

[00:11:57] I love that. Dave, I would love to hear more about how you are leveraging AI.

[00:12:02] You know, we talk a lot on this show about that specifically where it will never replace the human element.

[00:12:09] And obviously, as good as AI can be, it can feed us information.

[00:12:12] It can, you know, comb a lot of data very quickly and it could cut out some administrative tasks.

[00:12:17] But it's never going to replace the human element.

[00:12:20] We can't just take AI content and ship it.

[00:12:23] You know, we've got to add that personal touch.

[00:12:25] I'd love to hear how are you integrating AI into your day to day?

[00:12:29] I use it in virtually everything that I do.

[00:12:33] And I have a whole variety of tools.

[00:12:36] I mean, just as, you know, Google isn't paying me for this.

[00:12:39] One of the best tools I've discovered recently is Google Notebooks.

[00:12:44] That's just a stunning tool.

[00:12:46] And anybody who hasn't tried it should be trying that.

[00:12:49] But I use a huge number of AI tools depending on what I'm trying to do.

[00:12:55] You know, I chat GPT I use every day as a debate partner.

[00:13:01] You know, and I have a whole series of prompts that I go through saying, you know, here's an idea.

[00:13:08] Let's explore that idea.

[00:13:09] Tell me five reasons why my assumptions are wrong on it.

[00:13:13] And let's go back and forth.

[00:13:14] And so I'm not looking for it to give me answers, which is, I think, the mistake so many of us do or to displace my work.

[00:13:24] I'm helping.

[00:13:25] I'm using it to help me think better.

[00:13:29] And come out with better ideas and more complete ideas.

[00:13:34] And, again, I think it's that help me consider new things.

[00:13:41] So, for instance, I might go to a chat GPT and say, give me 10 arguments around this issue.

[00:13:48] And it may be I'm preparing to make a call on a customer and so on and so forth.

[00:13:53] And it gives me 10 arguments.

[00:13:56] And I'd say, give me 10 objections for each one of those.

[00:14:00] You know, and I'd go through and I'd drill down and ask it.

[00:14:03] And I said, what might be a different point of view?

[00:14:07] What might be a different way of expressing this?

[00:14:10] Where, you know, where are these wrong?

[00:14:13] And usually what I find is in the 10 I ask it to consider, 7 out of 10, I already knew.

[00:14:23] It gave me a slightly different perspective.

[00:14:26] 2 out of 10 were presented in a way I had never thought of before.

[00:14:34] And 1 out of 10 is, gee, I should have thought about that.

[00:14:39] And it's obvious now.

[00:14:42] And also, I use it for myself to help improve my ability to talk to you about the things that I'm doing or help me look at things differently.

[00:14:54] I love that.

[00:14:56] I would love to turn the question also to Christy because we've got the rare treat of having her on the show.

[00:15:00] So, you know, something that I think is amazing about AI is that, you know, I can ask it even in real time while I'm talking to a customer executive.

[00:15:09] What are some potential use cases of our solution or our product that I can bring up to this title or this person?

[00:15:16] And it can give me these things on the fly.

[00:15:19] Dave, you said something super important there.

[00:15:21] We may have been able to think of three or four or five of them off the cuff.

[00:15:25] But the fact that it can arm us with the other one or two or three that are game changing, that might be the one that that customer executive aligns to better.

[00:15:35] That's where I think the real strength is.

[00:15:37] Christy, I know you're also, you know, playing in the AI space and game today.

[00:15:41] I'd love to get your thoughts because your perspective is always very cutting edge.

[00:15:46] And, you know, what are your thoughts on AI and sales today?

[00:15:51] Yeah, I think Dave is probably a little bit further down the path, right?

[00:15:56] I don't think that – I think sales reps are using it for research.

[00:15:59] I don't think they're using it to fill in those gaps all the time.

[00:16:03] I don't think that we're using it to prepare for objection handling potentially.

[00:16:08] I mean, I think – and again, like these are simple things in my opinion, right?

[00:16:12] You know, when I talk to companies, when I talk about problems that we solve, as Dave started out talking about, there are two problems, right?

[00:16:20] There's the business problem and the financial impact that that business problem has on the organization.

[00:16:25] But there also is that person's problem.

[00:16:28] And so sometimes just solving that person's problem is just enough.

[00:16:31] And I feel like we, as sales leaders, really emphasize that we're going after the business problem and the financial impact that business problem has without maybe sometimes understanding that, hey, it's possible that perhaps if we just solve this person's problem, it would be worth the price of admission.

[00:16:47] And so I think really understanding that what keeps them up at night and what – even like things like sometimes when I'm looking to build personas for my customers, I also want to know like not only what keeps them up at night and what objections they may have, but also like what would we – you know, what would be the next career path for them?

[00:17:07] What are they – if they're in this role in this company after this many years, like what's the next step for them?

[00:17:11] Because sometimes if we can even solve that problem, right?

[00:17:14] If whatever we can do from a software perspective can help them look like the hero internally and they get promoted, well, they're a raving fan for life, right?

[00:17:25] That's huge.

[00:17:26] Yeah, that is.

[00:17:27] See, what I think is so important about what Christy said is she brought back, you know, where we as an industry seem to be going in the opposite direction.

[00:17:35] We seem to be removing the human connection and the specific how do they feel about it right now?

[00:17:42] What is solving their problem?

[00:17:44] Maybe not the customer, the company problem, but what is solving their problem?

[00:17:48] You know, maybe it's to get home at a reasonable time so they can go to the kids' soccer game.

[00:17:54] Maybe it's to get that next promotion.

[00:17:57] You know, maybe it's just to eliminate a lot of crap that they're dealing with and all.

[00:18:02] But we are training out of so many of our salespeople the ability to have those conversations which have the greatest impact.

[00:18:12] You know, we talk very casually about we make decisions with our heart and rationalize them with our brain.

[00:18:20] But all we're doing in so much of our newer sales approaches is doing things from a brain point of view, not making that connection to the human being.

[00:18:34] And the way we're doing things from a brain point of view has a lot of faults as well.

[00:18:41] Yeah, that's that science versus art that I've been talking about.

[00:18:44] I think we're like I said, I think we're leaning too far to the science and we're going to lose.

[00:18:47] I'm afraid about the art of sales is going to go extinct.

[00:18:51] Dave, I wanted to go back and touch on a couple of things you brought up.

[00:18:55] I think the notebook from Google you're talking about is notebook LM.

[00:18:59] Is that the tool you're talking about?

[00:19:02] Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[00:19:03] It will even create a little mini podcast episode for you.

[00:19:06] I've seen that.

[00:19:07] Well, what I've done is for all my blog posts, I create a podcast from it.

[00:19:13] And it's funny, a good friend of mine said the podcast was better than your blog post.

[00:19:21] And I'm embarrassed to say.

[00:19:23] I'm embarrassed to say.

[00:19:25] That's a good friend.

[00:19:26] It was actually much better than what I had written.

[00:19:30] But it's such a powerful tool.

[00:19:33] Yeah.

[00:19:34] And then the other thing, you know, and this kind of what you were talking about, about role playing or going back and forth.

[00:19:40] I don't know if you've used the advanced voice mode of chat GPT that's on your phone where you can really have a conversation.

[00:19:46] And I had kind of a scary awakening going through this.

[00:19:51] I asked the I asked chat GPT through the advanced voice mode.

[00:19:55] And I said, I'm trying to get better at listening when I'm on phone calls and like picking up, you know, because you have these Zoom calls, right, all day long.

[00:20:03] And I don't know, sometimes for me, they're just like a blur at the end of the day.

[00:20:08] And how do I listen better?

[00:20:09] So it said, OK, we're going to go through some listening exercises.

[00:20:12] And so it would give me like something to listen to.

[00:20:15] And then we come back and test me on what I heard in that thing that was there.

[00:20:20] And what was super scary about it is it might talk for 30 seconds or 45 seconds.

[00:20:26] But when it went back to test me, I probably had duplicated maybe 20 percent of the things that they had gone through.

[00:20:34] So it's like the tools that it can do to really not just help you research or whatever, but just get better, right, just level up.

[00:20:42] And another level is really remarkable.

[00:20:46] And I'm sure if someone was if I were going to pay somebody to do that, I would have paid them a lot to go through and give me, you know, listening coaching, so to speak.

[00:20:54] But pushing back a little bit, I mean, those are very powerful things to develop our skills for active listening and engaging and all those kinds of things.

[00:21:04] But I think we can have a higher expectation of the tools and our utilization of the tools is how do they help us think differently?

[00:21:14] How do they help us consider new ideas?

[00:21:17] How do they help us help our customers think differently about things?

[00:21:22] And one of the big problems I have with most of the use of LLMs right now is they are designed to give us answers.

[00:21:35] Yeah.

[00:21:36] But not challenges, right?

[00:21:38] Exactly.

[00:21:39] Exactly.

[00:21:40] There's only one tool out there that I know that is designed to give you challenges and designed to provoke you to think.

[00:21:48] And it's probably the most remarkable tool I've seen in AI.

[00:21:51] But it is and that's where we create the biggest value for our customers is in engaging our customers is not throwing up a whole bunch of answers.

[00:22:05] I can go into ChatGPT and I can say, give me a here's a customer I'm going after, do the research for it, identify their key issues and tell me what my first conversation should be about.

[00:22:18] And it goes through and rolls out 10 pages of stuff that is not wrong, but it's not right.

[00:22:31] And it's not specific enough for me to separate myself from everybody else that's doing the very same thing.

[00:22:43] That's powerful that you said that, Dave.

[00:22:45] Something I want to sit on for a second there is the power of asking for multiple answers or knowing what you're looking for and what you're not looking for with AI.

[00:22:55] Like a lot of times to get the one real like thing that I want to sink my teeth into in a customer conversation, I may have to ask for like 20 different responses.

[00:23:04] And then I'm like, bingo, that's the one that I really want to amplify based on what I'm seeing in their company reports.

[00:23:10] You know, things that are happening in their industry, whatever it is.

[00:23:13] I think it's amazing, you know, Dave, that you've you've been a prominent figure in sales for a long time and you're grappling with all of these new ways of engaging buyers.

[00:23:25] And that's what it is at the end of the day.

[00:23:27] It's engaging buyers are fascinated by your fascination with these AI tools.

[00:23:32] Tell us more.

[00:23:33] How can we leverage these tools?

[00:23:35] How how would you challenge the way that we are probably already leveraging the tools to help us do it better as sellers today to better connect with our buyers?

[00:23:48] So I'll give a couple of good, OK answers and I'll give a couple of cynical answers.

[00:23:55] I love it.

[00:23:56] And, you know, some of the OK answers is, again, go for it less for answers or less for it to do the things for you.

[00:24:08] It can do that stuff.

[00:24:10] But have it challenge you and start having you think differently.

[00:24:15] You know, explicitly ask, you know, debate me on this.

[00:24:20] Tell me where I'm wrong.

[00:24:22] Tell me where I'm thinking.

[00:24:23] Here's some premises I have blow holes through it.

[00:24:27] And let's go back and forth through that.

[00:24:29] And it only takes a little bit of time.

[00:24:31] And once you start using the tools quite a bit, you can you know, you kind of have the format for the prompts already in your mind.

[00:24:42] So you can go through that and learn a huge amount in a very, very short period of time.

[00:24:48] There are tools like probably the single most powerful AI tool for selling sellers that I've ever seen is a tool from a new startup called Grow.ai.

[00:25:01] And it's GRW.ai.

[00:25:04] And they have a tool that is a coaching tool.

[00:25:09] It's a coaching tool for sellers.

[00:25:11] It's a coaching tool for managers.

[00:25:13] It's a coaching tool for all sorts of things.

[00:25:15] Their engagement strategy, I do compare and contrast.

[00:25:18] I say, here's the deal I'm working on.

[00:25:25] And in chat GPT, it says, here's the profile of the company.

[00:25:29] Here are their issues.

[00:25:30] Here's what you should talk about to the CRO.

[00:25:34] Grow starts saying, why are you choosing that deal?

[00:25:38] Tell me a little bit about it.

[00:25:39] Tell me a little bit about why you think it's a customer.

[00:25:43] It starts asking me a whole lot of questions, just like a very good manager would start saying.

[00:25:49] It would even challenge me and say, Dave, that company isn't in your ICP.

[00:25:56] Why do you want to go after that?

[00:25:58] So it's challenging me in ways that isn't giving me answers.

[00:26:02] It's helping me think.

[00:26:04] And it goes through a dialogue that helps me think differently and gives me suggestions.

[00:26:10] You might try this.

[00:26:11] You might do that.

[00:26:13] But it goes through exactly like you'd have the very most sophisticated sales coach helping

[00:26:20] you develop a deal strategy and helping you develop an account on whatever it is that

[00:26:26] you're trying to do.

[00:26:27] And I think that we need to see tools that are challenging us in different ways.

[00:26:32] I've been working on developing my own chat bot.

[00:26:35] And the big problem I had with doing it under chat GPT is that the way I coach,

[00:26:42] is I ask questions constantly.

[00:26:47] The way my chat GPT bot coach is it gives you answers.

[00:26:53] That's not coaching.

[00:26:56] So we need to look at tools like that.

[00:26:58] So that's a couple of things maybe on the positive side.

[00:27:03] The slightly cynical side.

[00:27:06] And this comes from an experience in 2002.

[00:27:08] I was a co-founder of a very, very early AI startup.

[00:27:13] It was headquartered in Paris.

[00:27:15] We were doing very early stage AI primarily very deep analytics for manufacturing process control

[00:27:23] and prescriptive maintenance.

[00:27:26] And what we found is we had this ability to help people develop solutions for massive problems.

[00:27:34] Literally, I remember one company we saved $100 million a year.

[00:27:39] I only got $2 million revenue out of that, but we saved them $100 million.

[00:27:45] What we found is you have to be wickedly smart because it's the smarter the people were,

[00:27:55] the better they could look at the answers and understand the meaning of the answers.

[00:28:00] And right now you read in the press about these things.

[00:28:04] You look at AI and medical applications.

[00:28:06] Doctors who are highly trained look at this and they bring their intelligence and their experience

[00:28:16] into the AI and it really complements them and makes them better.

[00:28:22] So, you know, and this is, again, more cynical or more crass.

[00:28:28] I'm tired of stupid people using AI because they come out with stupid results.

[00:28:33] I'm just tired of stupid people, Dave.

[00:28:35] You're more blamed.

[00:28:36] Yeah.

[00:28:38] Yeah.

[00:28:38] Regardless of what they're using.

[00:28:40] Yeah.

[00:28:42] Dave, what you said was really interesting, but we as humans don't normally want a dissenting opinion.

[00:28:50] We love confirmation bias.

[00:28:52] We love using those tools to confirm the wackadoodical, you know, idea we already have

[00:28:59] or, you know, I know I'm right, so chat GPT, tell me I'm right.

[00:29:04] So I think that's a very lofty, you know, idea.

[00:29:11] So how, but in general, like we have a, that's a cultural issue.

[00:29:14] Right.

[00:29:15] So like, how do we convince more sales reps to step away from confirmation bias and be willing

[00:29:22] to use these tools to challenge our maybe not quite right thoughts?

[00:29:32] Well, I'll push back on you a little bit, Christy.

[00:29:36] It isn't our job as sellers to address dissenting opinions, address our customers have opinions

[00:29:45] that are different than ours.

[00:29:47] And unless we can reconcile and address those dissenting opinions, we won't be successful.

[00:29:55] So, you know, you look at the core of our job, it's understanding dissenting opinions and resolving

[00:30:03] those conflicts.

[00:30:05] So that's our job.

[00:30:07] Why aren't we employing that principle in every aspect of our job?

[00:30:13] Something I think is interesting here too is like the implications for sales managers,

[00:30:18] right?

[00:30:18] You know, you have a lot of ineffective sales managers who aren't capable, willing, or able

[00:30:24] to ask those types of tough questions.

[00:30:27] And, you know, what are the implications?

[00:30:29] I mean, I think it forces, this technology is going to force sales managers to up the ante,

[00:30:35] up the bar.

[00:30:35] But also it makes some of the ineffective things that they're doing today rendered obsolete.

[00:30:41] You know, if a pot or an AI technology can ask salespeople the tough questions that they

[00:30:46] need to be able to answer to analyze a deal or to better prospect or to better do a needs

[00:30:52] analysis.

[00:30:53] Wow.

[00:30:54] I mean, look at the implications for that.

[00:30:56] I think, you know, we're looking at a world where the titles of salespeople and sales leaders

[00:31:01] in the next five to 10 years could be drastically altered because of what's actually needed to

[00:31:06] best meet the buyer where they are.

[00:31:08] What do you think about that, Dave?

[00:31:10] But see, and I think that, see, I think the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow of all

[00:31:18] this massive change we're going through is the answers to the questions, and they'll evolve

[00:31:25] over time is the answers to the questions that, you know, are we doing things that AI can't do?

[00:31:36] And that's where the big thing is.

[00:31:39] And if you look at all the scientists, you know, who, you know, if anybody isn't following Ethan

[00:31:46] Mollick, he's a professor at Wharton, probably one of the best books called Co-Intelligence

[00:31:53] and all, but if we aren't focused on becoming experts at the things that AI can't do, we're

[00:32:02] missing that opportunity.

[00:32:04] And that's the pot of gold for us as sellers.

[00:32:08] It's the pot of gold for us as leaders within our organizations to say, we have a lot of

[00:32:14] things that AI can do that will improve productivity, reduce time spent on certain tasks, and improve

[00:32:21] information flow and so on.

[00:32:23] But can they connect with that individual and what's standing in the way of that individual's

[00:32:31] performance today?

[00:32:33] And how I instigate that individual to think differently and change?

[00:32:40] The tools don't do that.

[00:32:42] And so that's where we become the differentiators.

[00:32:46] And that's the value that is unique to us and special to our people, special within our

[00:32:53] companies, and special to our customers.

[00:32:57] And we just don't spend enough time talking about that.

[00:33:02] That comment, I think, for me has opened up like five questions.

[00:33:05] I won't ask all five, I promise, but I'll do two here.

[00:33:09] So as managers, do you think that when we're managing salespeople or onboarding new salespeople,

[00:33:17] do we need to organize our onboarding to kind of separate out, hey, here's things that AI

[00:33:23] can help you with, and we'll teach you how to do that.

[00:33:26] But here's this personal part that you can't just be average at.

[00:33:30] You've got to put all of your energy into really building your skills on the parts that the AI

[00:33:36] can't do. So that you're really coaching those things versus trying to coach things that are

[00:33:41] maybe could be coached through AI or done through the other AI part.

[00:33:45] That's the first question.

[00:33:47] The second question is, and I think it's related to this,

[00:33:52] as sellers, do we really need, and I think I know the answers, but I'm sure you're taking all of your

[00:33:57] takes actually on this is, it seems like we have to have a much deeper understanding

[00:34:02] of our ideal customer profile, our market.

[00:34:06] I mean, we have to up our game in terms of our knowledge if we're going to be successful

[00:34:12] with in this world.

[00:34:14] And so, yeah, what is your take on that as it relates to onboarding, bringing on new salespeople,

[00:34:20] that type of thing?

[00:34:21] Well, I think, I mean, right now, as an example, we're using ChatGPT.

[00:34:29] And I'm right now very excited about using Google Notebook to design and actually implement a lot

[00:34:36] of training programs and to have people go through AI-based training programs.

[00:34:43] As an example, a couple of years ago, just as ChatGPT was coming up,

[00:34:48] I had done a program on business acumen and financial acumen for a very, very large customer.

[00:34:55] And the people were really struggling.

[00:34:58] Everybody was taking it.

[00:34:59] We had the follow-up sessions.

[00:35:01] They were really struggling to implement it.

[00:35:03] And just for kind of, you know, an experiment, I asked ChatGPT to design a program with the same objectives.

[00:35:14] And I looked at it, and the program that it designed was if I had to rate them on a scale of one to ten,

[00:35:23] you know, the program I designed was somewhere around an eight.

[00:35:27] You know, that's partly my ego speaking.

[00:35:29] The program ChatGPT design was probably a three, a three and a half.

[00:35:36] The problem was all the sellers were at a one.

[00:35:42] And what I did was I was trying to take them from a one to an eight in one fell swoop.

[00:35:52] And what I discovered is, and now we're leveraging ChatGPT in training and having people go through things to say,

[00:36:03] how do we take them from a one to a three?

[00:36:07] And then once we get them at a three, how do we then start taking them up to an eight?

[00:36:13] We have lots of exercises where we give people an exercise and say, go to ChatGPT and look at this.

[00:36:20] And come back to us and give us a presentation.

[00:36:23] And I don't care about the answer.

[00:36:25] What I do is I care about the prompts.

[00:36:28] And then what we do is say, look at what you did in prompt engineering and challenging ChatGPT.

[00:36:36] Why don't you try prompt engineering with your customers and your customer conversations?

[00:36:41] Because the same technique that we use with thoughtful prompt engineering are the same kinds of conversations we should be getting into with our customers.

[00:36:54] So we're leveraging this.

[00:36:55] You know, people love ChatGPT because it's the cool things that cool kids do right now.

[00:37:01] You know, but now we're starting to extend that to prompt engineering for customer conversations, which is precisely the same thing.

[00:37:11] And so there's a lot of things that we can do and use it with.

[00:37:15] And there's a lot of things we abuse it for.

[00:37:18] But again, most of what our programs are oriented around are around curiosity, critical thinking, problem solving and collaborative conversations.

[00:37:30] And those are the critical skills for engaging our people, if we're coaching them or our customers, if we're trying to help them change and help them achieve more.

[00:37:42] And so there's so many great ways that you can leverage the tools.

[00:37:47] And again, right now I see too many of the, you know, the low hanging fruit, easy way that, you know, you know, again, frankly, stupid people do is using these not for the full advantage that they can have.

[00:38:03] I'm going to drive away your audience.

[00:38:06] We just want everybody to be smarter.

[00:38:08] There's nothing wrong about that.

[00:38:10] Smart selling.

[00:38:11] I hope you only attract very, very smart people.

[00:38:14] I know Bob's here and Bob's one of the smartest people I know.

[00:38:20] There you go.

[00:38:23] So let's shift gears a little bit.

[00:38:26] And I think this is related, right?

[00:38:30] But one of the things we were chatting about even before we started here, you know, you hear all this, you know, stuff from Gartner and all the analysts, right?

[00:38:39] Customers, buyers want to buy online or they want to do their homework online.

[00:38:44] They don't want to talk to a salesperson if they don't have to.

[00:38:47] All of those things.

[00:38:50] I think there's two questions there and definitely Christy and Carson jump in on this.

[00:38:54] But I think there's, you know, first of all, is that even realistic?

[00:38:58] And is that stupid?

[00:38:59] Going back, is that a stupid idea?

[00:39:02] And then secondly, though, the fact is that buyers do want to do more digital work.

[00:39:07] How do we weave that into our strategy for offline and personal?

[00:39:12] And how do we make ourselves valuable so they want to spend time talking to us as a salesperson?

[00:39:17] Well, I think we have to kind of segment it.

[00:39:23] There are some buying and selling journeys that are and should be fully automated.

[00:39:31] And that's not new, but they are and should be fully automated.

[00:39:35] And they're primarily transactional things where you have very knowledgeable, very experienced buyers.

[00:39:41] Level of risk is low, blah, blah, blah.

[00:39:44] There are things and mostly in the market, in the cusp work that we do is complex B2B.

[00:39:52] You know, large buying groups, very challenging decisions.

[00:39:57] People don't know what they don't know in things like that.

[00:40:01] And those are areas where I think we have offered a huge advantage.

[00:40:10] I don't think we're leveraging that advantage very well.

[00:40:13] But now you look at it and say customers are, so you go through the history, customers are increasingly going to digital forms because they can get the information they want,

[00:40:29] they need more easily than getting it from a salesperson.

[00:40:33] Customers are opting not to use salespeople if they can.

[00:40:39] And so we don't ask ourselves the questions, why are they choosing that?

[00:40:45] Well, they're choosing it half the time because we don't understand them and we aren't being helpful to them.

[00:40:51] So we are wasting their time.

[00:40:55] You know, it's not that they necessarily prefer a technology solution.

[00:41:00] It's that we aren't doing anything that's helpful to them.

[00:41:03] So they're going to the places that are helpful.

[00:41:05] So we fast forward and we evolve and we start saying it's going to be a hybrid journey.

[00:41:13] There's going to be digital interventions.

[00:41:15] There are going to be human interventions.

[00:41:20] And what we have to do is design the tools and processes in a way that engages the customer in the way that's most appropriate for them right now.

[00:41:31] I think the mistake that we make in that is we design things to have customers buy from us the way we want to sell to them rather than sell to them the way they want to buy for us and from us.

[00:41:53] And the best example that there's a fantastic article in the current issue of HBR.

[00:42:00] It's called let me look at it.

[00:42:03] It's called a better way to link sales and marketing.

[00:42:07] It's in the November, December issue of HBR.

[00:42:10] And what they talk about is digital customer hubs, which a lot of us know as digital buying rooms.

[00:42:15] And here we do, we create this complete experience where our customers can get engaged.

[00:42:22] Marketing, customer service, sales can get engaged with them digitally.

[00:42:27] We can have, you know, on the spot meetings and do all sorts of things.

[00:42:34] And what's the one thing wrong with this model?

[00:42:42] So I'll answer my own question.

[00:42:45] The one thing wrong with model is we're forcing them to buy the way we want to sell.

[00:42:51] So here's the problem with that.

[00:42:52] I'm a customer.

[00:42:54] I have to get involved in Carson's digital selling room.

[00:42:58] I have to get involved in Christie's digital selling room.

[00:43:02] I've got to get involved in Tom's digital selling room.

[00:43:08] And God forbid I have to get involved in Bob Britton's digital selling room.

[00:43:12] So how is this making buying easier for me?

[00:43:17] We each are creating this hybrid digital buying selling experience, but we're designing it and optimizing it around the way we want to sell, not the way customers want to buy.

[00:43:31] So imagine a new possibility.

[00:43:34] What if there were a digital buying room?

[00:43:37] And customers invited buyers into that room.

[00:43:43] They'd all have their own secure spots, but the customer could assemble their whole team and say, hey, Carson's saying some, ironically, none of us would believe it, but Carson's saying some pretty clever things here.

[00:43:57] And Chris just said something here.

[00:43:59] And Tom said something here.

[00:44:00] And we ignore Bob.

[00:44:02] Bob's a good friend, so he gets my humor.

[00:44:05] And all that.

[00:44:07] So that's the way to design selling the way to support the way customers want to buy rather than forcing customers to buy the way we want to sell.

[00:44:20] So we ask ourselves the right questions, but we look at it from what we do and want to inflict on customers rather than how do we make the customer experience much richer and much better.

[00:44:38] It's absolutely magical.

[00:44:40] And I think it ties back to a few different things that we've talked about today, but one that Christy really eloquently put out there earlier.

[00:44:47] It's we've got to figure out the wins for the buyer.

[00:44:51] And that's something that AI can't do.

[00:44:53] It's something that a lot of sellers aren't doing.

[00:44:57] We'll call those sellers the noise.

[00:45:00] There's a lot of sellers that are out there creating noise and throwing, hey, my product's great because it'll do this and this and this without understanding the customer,

[00:45:08] without earning the right to be a trusted advisor.

[00:45:12] And so to Christy's earlier point, that's why it's so critical that, yes, our buyers are out there right now.

[00:45:18] They're able to educate themselves like never before.

[00:45:20] They need us less than they've ever needed us before.

[00:45:23] However, that human element that we can bring where we can help a lot of times navigate some of these crazy waters.

[00:45:32] I work for a large company and a lot of times it's very challenging for my customers to understand all of the nuances and idiosyncrasies of that organization.

[00:45:41] One of the biggest values that I can bring my clients is I can help demystify a lot of these resources.

[00:45:47] I always like to tell my team we invest very significantly in the industry that I work in.

[00:45:53] And it's our collective job to make sure that we are going out and finding our customers piece of the pie.

[00:45:59] How can I help them arm me with what I need to know to go internally and sell my organization on investing more in that specific company?

[00:46:07] A lot of times I have customers that tell me, I know I'm small potatoes to you guys.

[00:46:12] You're not small potatoes to me.

[00:46:14] You're not small potatoes to my team.

[00:46:16] And so it's my job.

[00:46:17] I get paid to be your advocate and your evangelist within this behemoth.

[00:46:21] And I can also help demystify the ways that you can optimize your relationship with us, optimize your costs, et cetera.

[00:46:29] And that's the thing that AI can never take away is that ability for us as humans, as good salespeople to cut through the noise, bring a unique message,

[00:46:39] but meet the buyer exactly where they are and add a value that data and AI can't give them.

[00:46:43] Yeah.

[00:46:44] Yeah.

[00:46:45] And it's engaging them in a way that's almost opposite to the way that we engage them right now.

[00:46:53] So, for instance, for years, we've been doing a number of programs we call business-focused selling.

[00:46:59] And it's very simple.

[00:47:00] We go in and from the very first customer meeting, we talk to them about themselves, their businesses, and what they want to do, the problems they face, and so on.

[00:47:09] And we never talk about what we sell, even if they ask that.

[00:47:15] What we do is we keep saying, you know, what are you trying to achieve?

[00:47:20] Who should be involved in it?

[00:47:22] Where do you learn more about this stuff?

[00:47:24] And we, you know, point them in different directions.

[00:47:27] How do we organize a project around this change initiative?

[00:47:31] How do we get management support so we support them in doing their jobs and doing their work in managing the change effort more efficiently and more effectively?

[00:47:44] At some point, they come and say, how can you help?

[00:47:49] We never mentioned the product up until that point.

[00:47:52] So three things happen.

[00:47:57] One is you would expect win rates more than double.

[00:48:02] And you're building trust, you're building confidence, all those things.

[00:48:05] No decisions made.

[00:48:07] So far, we're measuring no decisions made reduced by 20 to 25%.

[00:48:11] We think it's more because we've just, since Matt and Ted came out with Jolt, we've just started measuring it.

[00:48:18] So we're seeing that go down.

[00:48:21] But the most counterintuitive thing is sales cycles go down by 30 and 40%.

[00:48:26] And why is that?

[00:48:28] You go back to the old Gartner diagram.

[00:48:31] Customers don't know how to buy.

[00:48:33] They don't know what they're doing.

[00:48:34] They wander all over the place.

[00:48:36] And we create this spaghetti diagram.

[00:48:39] Helping them buy helps them navigate a clear process through that and helps them manage that change initiative really well.

[00:48:47] So here what we're doing is we're focusing, we have this business or customer focused conversations about what they care about and what they're interested in and how we can help them.

[00:49:02] And, you know, they get what they want and need much faster.

[00:49:09] And we get what we want and need much faster.

[00:49:13] But right now, we design everything around, I'd like to pitch my product to you.

[00:49:18] So, Dave, I really, what you just said there, I want to kind of unpack that a little bit clearly.

[00:49:25] And just tell me if I heard this right.

[00:49:28] What I heard you say is if you go in and you have a consultative discussion that has nothing to do with your product but has to do with their problem, what they're trying to solve, their challenges, whatever, you don't ever mention your product.

[00:49:43] You don't pitch, you just consult until the customer asks you what you can do about it with your product.

[00:49:51] What I heard you say is no decisions drop significantly, velocity increases, and win rates increase like way meaningfully.

[00:50:01] Did I hear all that right?

[00:50:02] Yep.

[00:50:04] Wow.

[00:50:05] Sounds kind of counterintuitive, doesn't it?

[00:50:09] I love counterintuitive.

[00:50:13] So, taking that full circle to what we were talking about with AI, right?

[00:50:19] How do we use AI to be the best damn consultant that we can be for that customer so that we get to that point where they ask us, how can you help me?

[00:50:30] How can I basically buy your product or service?

[00:50:34] Clearly, according to Dave, we use it the opposite of what every bad seller is using it for right now.

[00:50:39] Just giving them answers that are agreeable.

[00:50:41] It reminds me of that episode of Seinfeld, which is my favorite of all time, The Opposite, where George Costanza decides to do the opposite of every inclination he's ever had.

[00:50:50] He gets a girlfriend.

[00:50:52] He gets a job at the Yankees.

[00:50:54] It's amazing.

[00:50:55] If sellers would sometimes do the opposite of their ridiculous inclinations, they'd have a lot more success.

[00:51:02] I'll have to go back because that's a really neat kind of analogy.

[00:51:05] I'll have to go back and look at that.

[00:51:08] It is, you know, we all care about what we care about.

[00:51:18] And, you know, go to a cocktail party and you're not interested in a person talking about how great they are, how the accomplishments they've done and so on and so forth.

[00:51:31] You want to talk to people who are interested in you and you're interested in.

[00:51:37] And somehow we've lost that in selling.

[00:51:41] It's just basic nature.

[00:51:44] It is let me talk to the customer about what they care about.

[00:51:48] And they don't care about what we sell.

[00:51:50] They care about their problem, their business.

[00:51:53] Now we start bridging AI to it.

[00:51:56] AI can give us a huge amount of insight and intelligence and ideas about how to approach it.

[00:52:06] And we can debate and we can look at pros and cons of different arguments and so on.

[00:52:11] And it equips us to a certain point.

[00:52:14] But this, and here you can tell how old I am.

[00:52:17] I talk about the last mile problem.

[00:52:19] You know, if you've ever been in telecom, whoever owned the last mile owned everything.

[00:52:27] You know, the last mile problem is the specific context.

[00:52:34] What does this mean to you, Carson, right now?

[00:52:38] What does this mean to you, Christy?

[00:52:41] What are the issues you're facing?

[00:52:43] Tom, how is this kind of impacting you?

[00:52:46] And so none of these tools can give us the context to, one, empathize and understand.

[00:52:54] Two, understand what's happening in this moment and how we move from this moment to the next moment.

[00:53:02] None of these tools recognize that people change their minds.

[00:53:09] And so it's that a week from now, I'll come back to each of you.

[00:53:13] And we've been talking about these issues.

[00:53:15] And you said, hey, Dave, I've been thinking about this.

[00:53:20] Here's the different world.

[00:53:23] And so it's that last mile or that individual or even organizational, contextual, specific thing about what they care about, not our products.

[00:53:39] And that's the comfort, that's that whole business focus selling thing.

[00:53:43] And it's helping them understand and develop that confidence.

[00:53:47] And then they're going to turn to you and say, how do you help me?

[00:53:52] I love that.

[00:53:53] And I want to make a parallel on that kind of that theme of simplification of message.

[00:53:58] I'm actually at a conference this week in Seattle, and I was in some sessions yesterday.

[00:54:03] And one of them was on negotiation.

[00:54:05] And it was all about the element and the importance of de-risking customer decisions.

[00:54:10] We talk about that a lot on this show, the jolt effect and just the impact that that's had on all of us from our sales perspective.

[00:54:18] The other one was with this fascinating former White House speechwriter.

[00:54:24] And it was the art of crafting a great story.

[00:54:28] And as sellers, that's at the end of the day what the great sellers are.

[00:54:32] We're great storytellers.

[00:54:33] We're able to take this situation and we're able to draw a picture of what the journey could and should be like to go to this other scenario that is better and then to ultimately de-risk that decision.

[00:54:47] But the amazing thing that he kind of articulated, which resonated with me, was how do we simplify that journey?

[00:54:54] And it kind of started with the three-pronged approach of every speech that ultimately the president at the time would give.

[00:55:00] And it was all about, first, I'm going to start briefly with the story of me.

[00:55:04] Why am I uniquely here?

[00:55:07] What is it about me maybe or my organization that is uniquely qualified to be in this conversation?

[00:55:12] Next is the story of you, and that would be you as the buyer.

[00:55:16] These are the things that I've gleaned from talking to other people in the organization.

[00:55:20] These are the things that I've seen in the press releases or in company reports, et cetera, that I want to address.

[00:55:27] But then lastly, it's the story of us.

[00:55:29] And so ultimately, where are we going together and why?

[00:55:33] Where could we go together and why?

[00:55:35] And ultimately, it resonated with me so much because I realized it was funny.

[00:55:41] I turned to a colleague, and I was talking about these prospecting messages that we're putting together to reach out to board members and C-level and VP-level at organizations that we work with today for prospecting.

[00:55:53] And I'm like, wow, it's amazing how that structure is exactly what we're using.

[00:55:57] And lo and behold, it's working because it's meeting them where they are.

[00:56:02] It's bringing up relevant themes.

[00:56:04] It's not talking about a product.

[00:56:05] It's not talking about a service or solution or trying to diagnose before we can even go in and understand the person.

[00:56:12] It's actually going in and trying to create a narrative that helps the customer make sense as to why we would be uniquely positioned as someone that they could talk to and bring value.

[00:56:22] And a way to think about that, it's the art of conducting high-impact collaborative conversations.

[00:56:31] And we've kind of lost that many of us never had that.

[00:56:36] You know, I've struggled with it.

[00:56:38] You know, I tend to be a high-D driver, so I get into tell mode pretty easily.

[00:56:45] But how do we get into these collaborative conversations where we're doing this thing together?

[00:56:54] It's interesting.

[00:56:56] We, in our leadership development and coaching kind of classes, we talk a lot about collaborative conversations we have with our people.

[00:57:04] And it was interesting.

[00:57:05] I kind of knew it.

[00:57:07] But a couple of years ago, one of the leaders said, hey, we should be having these conversations with our customers because they're exactly the same thing.

[00:57:20] And for them, it was one of this aha moment.

[00:57:23] We're learning how to coach and set an example with collaborative conversations with our people.

[00:57:29] And we want our people to start modeling the same behaviors we're doing in their conversations with the customers.

[00:57:38] And it was really kind of a breakthrough of trying to kind of connect kind of the same through lines through how we work with each other in an organization to achieve our goals.

[00:57:50] How do we work with our customers to achieve our shared goals and so on?

[00:57:56] And so we tend to make it much more complicated than it really needs to be.

[00:58:04] Well, we're almost an hour in.

[00:58:06] And I think we covered one of the questions on the list for today.

[00:58:10] So well done.

[00:58:12] We had ambitious goals for this episode, but it was another one of the greats.

[00:58:16] Yeah.

[00:58:17] Maybe you're inviting back.

[00:58:20] This will be a five-part series so we can get through all the five questions here.

[00:58:25] Christy or Carson, any final thoughts or questions before we wrap up from Dave?

[00:58:31] I really think that what you just went through about the consultant and doing that consult,

[00:58:37] true, that true consultative sale and those numbers, that's gigantic.

[00:58:42] I mean, that's a mic drop moment right there because those are seriously meaningful improvements to your sales effort.

[00:58:52] Nothing to do with AI, but everything to do with discipline.

[00:58:55] Yep.

[00:58:56] Yeah.

[00:58:57] Yep.

[00:58:59] All right.

[00:59:00] Well, Dave, thank you.

[00:59:01] Yes, we will have you back.

[00:59:03] And we need to dive into question number two on our next episode.

[00:59:08] Well, thanks so much.

[00:59:10] It's been a great conversation.

[00:59:12] I really appreciate it.

[00:59:14] It's amazing.

[00:59:15] No problem.

[00:59:16] Thank you.

[00:59:16] All right, Christy, thank you for filling in for Brandon.

[00:59:20] Thank you for having me again.

[00:59:21] Thank you.

[00:59:22] Carson, thank you for breaking away.

[00:59:24] Thank you for breaking me away.

[00:59:26] Yeah.

[00:59:27] And I'm sorry for everybody who had technical issues and the fact that LinkedIn froze on us and whatever.

[00:59:34] But, you know, you can listen.

[00:59:36] We'll be out there.

[00:59:37] And I wonder if we'll see if the replay works.

[00:59:39] So we'll find out here momentarily.

[00:59:42] All right.

[00:59:43] Dave, thanks again.

[00:59:44] Everybody have a great week.

[00:59:45] And we'll see you next week.

[00:59:47] Thank you.

[00:59:48] Thank you.

[00:59:48] Until next time, everyone.

[00:59:49] Happy Modern Selling.

[00:59:59] Thank you for joining us today on Mastering Modern Selling.

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