MMS #111 - The Evolving Art of Selling with Allan Langer

[00:00:01] Welcome to Mastering Modern Selling, relationships, social and AI in the buyer-centric age. Join host Brandon Lee, founder of Fistbump, alongside Microsoft's number one social seller Carson V Heady, and Tom Burton, author of The Revenue Zone and co-founder of LeadSmart, as we explore the strategies and stories behind successful executives and sales professionals.

[00:00:24] Dive into business growth, personal development, and the pursuit of excellence with industry leaders. Whether you're a seasoned executive or an aspiring leader, this podcast is your backstage pass to today's business landscape. This is Mastering Modern Selling, brought to you by Fistbump.

[00:00:50] Hey everybody, it's Brandon and Carson and Allan with us. Welcome to Mastering Modern Selling. And we have been totally flustered because Restream didn't seem to want to work for us. So we apologize. We know we're a few minutes late and we're, I don't know if all of our LinkedIns are connected or technology, right Carson? Can't you do something about that?

[00:01:13] Yeah, probably. You know, it's okay because we get thrown into all day, every day in sales, unpredictable situations. And those who survive and thrive are the ones who can operate in ambiguity. So here we are.

[00:01:28] There you are. Well, everybody, welcome to episode 111. That's got to mean something, right? That's got to be something good. All ones.

[00:01:36] A good omen. Yeah, make a wish.

[00:01:38] A good omen. I like that.

[00:01:39] Welcome to episode 111 of Mastering Modern Selling. And Carson, welcome. Tom is not able to be with us. He is in 70 mile an hour Santa Ana winds in Santa Barbara and powers out at his house.

[00:01:55] Holy cow.

[00:01:56] And then a fire started, so he's hoping he doesn't have to be evacuated. So, you know, good thoughts and prayers for Tom. And we miss him, of course.

[00:02:07] And Alan, welcome to Mastering Modern Selling.

[00:02:12] I'm excited to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Appreciate it.

[00:02:15] Absolutely. Well, sorry for the chaos, but Carson, I like what you said. I mean, we're living chaos in a lot of times, so we adapt.

[00:02:24] If you're not able to be nimble on your feet and take a deep breath and figure this stuff out, your sales is not your career for sure.

[00:02:31] I like to call it controllable chaos, like our controlled chaos. You get to a rhythm of, you know, you accept and embrace the fact that there's always going to be some chaos.

[00:02:41] And, you know, sometimes we get paid to keep a steady hand on the wheel and it's not always easy.

[00:02:46] But, you know, if it was easy, everybody would be doing it.

[00:02:49] There you go.

[00:02:51] Absolutely. Well, it looks like Butch is on with us. Tom is chatting with us.

[00:02:57] Tom, we're glad you're right, buddy.

[00:02:59] And Bob, aloha. Welcome to the show.

[00:03:03] And hey, I want to set this up for everybody.

[00:03:06] A couple of things. We'll do housekeeping.

[00:03:09] Thank you to my team at Fistbump.

[00:03:11] They produce, manage and promote our show for us every week.

[00:03:15] And for those of you that don't know, I mean, that's what we do.

[00:03:18] That's how we help sales at Fistbump.

[00:03:21] We produce, manage and promote your show to raise your reputation, grow personal brands and, of course, create sales opportunities with your ideal customers.

[00:03:32] So you need any help with that.

[00:03:33] Fistbump, my team is right there.

[00:03:36] Thank you, Carson.

[00:03:37] Ready to help you.

[00:03:39] If you're on the podcast, we don't mean to neglect you.

[00:03:41] We love going live on LinkedIn and we put the video onto YouTube.

[00:03:46] But if you're on the podcast, we really appreciate you as well.

[00:03:49] All the information you need to connect with our guests or connect with us is going to be in the show notes.

[00:03:53] If you like what you're hearing, we'd really appreciate the reviews, especially five-star reviews.

[00:03:59] Helps us get in front of more people.

[00:04:02] And we've been growing lately, Carson.

[00:04:05] We've got some things going on in the back end.

[00:04:07] We get a lot more downloads.

[00:04:08] It's been fun.

[00:04:09] Beautiful.

[00:04:09] Thank you, everyone.

[00:04:10] This has been quite a journey.

[00:04:13] Yeah.

[00:04:13] Well, let's get on with the show.

[00:04:14] Alan, you are the founder of the Seven Secrets Sales Academy.

[00:04:19] I've got this big bio in front of me that's all impressive.

[00:04:22] But why don't we just jump to you telling us a little bit more about you and what you do in the sales space?

[00:04:30] So sales probably in 27 years now, something like that.

[00:04:35] I've stopped counting, but it's been a long time.

[00:04:37] And I have had this, my own consulting sales training coaching business for, I mean, year six of that.

[00:04:45] And I got here in an unexpected way because as I was selling, I spent many of my years in the construction in-home sales business.

[00:04:53] You know, roofing, siding, windows, people who sell to homeowners, real estate people.

[00:04:58] And I'm a writer at heart.

[00:04:59] And I was one of the number, I was the top rep at Anderson Windows for many years.

[00:05:04] And I was kind of always thinking I want to write a book on why I was successful.

[00:05:10] And then I kind of got challenged by my old boss that he told me that what I was doing wasn't trainable.

[00:05:16] He called me a field salesperson.

[00:05:18] And what you're doing can't be trained.

[00:05:20] And he actually didn't let me talk to the other reps because he didn't want me to mess up their process, which was kind of crazy.

[00:05:27] So anyway, I took that to heart and I did write a book.

[00:05:30] But what was surprising me is the book became a bestseller.

[00:05:32] And from there, I started getting speaking engagements.

[00:05:35] And from the speaking engagements, I started, people were asking me to train.

[00:05:38] And the Seven Secret Sales Academy was born.

[00:05:41] So here I am.

[00:05:42] Love it.

[00:05:43] That's an amazing story.

[00:05:44] Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[00:05:46] You and I, what I like about this too, Carson, with Alan's background is we're in what I call more like real traditional businesses.

[00:05:55] We seem to talk a lot in tech and other areas, but you were selling windows and doors.

[00:06:01] Yeah, yeah.

[00:06:02] Yeah, we were, you know, the perception of sales is bad to begin with, any salesperson.

[00:06:08] But when you get into the in-home guys, you know, you get the tin men, you get the, you know, right below the car salesman.

[00:06:14] It's like, oh my God, these guys are coming to my house.

[00:06:16] It's going to be high pressure.

[00:06:17] It's going to be, you know, the old Kirby vacuum guys throwing a clump of dirt in the door when they open stuff like that.

[00:06:24] So it was hard.

[00:06:25] We were tasked with, we had to go into a house and sell anywhere from $10,000 to $60,000 worth of windows in two hours.

[00:06:33] And if you didn't do it, that customer's gone.

[00:06:35] There was no follow-up.

[00:06:36] There was no, there was no nurturing.

[00:06:38] You had to sell it or you were done.

[00:06:41] And you learn, what I learned was you learn how to sell good.

[00:06:46] But if you can learn how to sell without the pressure and making a person feel good in that environment, then you become a really good salesperson.

[00:06:53] And I felt better about myself as I evolved into that salesperson.

[00:06:57] I've sold windows too, but not the same kind.

[00:07:00] That's a joke.

[00:07:01] If you get it.

[00:07:04] Alan, I got to ask.

[00:07:05] So like, I want to dive in more on what did you do that wasn't trainable?

[00:07:11] I'm a big fan of unorthodox and unique sales approaches because I feel like anytime you can break away from the mold, break away from the connotation that people have of salespeople, that's the very thing that can make you successful.

[00:07:25] I'd love to know more.

[00:07:26] Tell us about kind of your non-trainable sales process.

[00:07:30] So obviously every company has a sales process, right?

[00:07:34] They all have the process.

[00:07:35] You need a process.

[00:07:36] You need some sort of roadmap for the sales rep.

[00:07:39] The problem that I saw was most companies, their sales training is really product training.

[00:07:45] They teach you how to sell the product.

[00:07:47] They teach you about the product.

[00:07:48] They don't teach you how to sell the product.

[00:07:49] So people are selling on features and benefits, mostly features.

[00:07:53] And people don't buy on features.

[00:07:55] They just don't.

[00:07:57] Emotion sells.

[00:07:58] Features don't.

[00:07:58] So when I started realizing this, I started looking at obviously not only the psychology of why people buy, you know, the pillars of influence like social proof and how to present your price properly and body language and sales.

[00:08:13] I was stunned.

[00:08:14] I mean, this was 10 years ago now, 15 years ago when I started studying body language.

[00:08:19] There was no books on body language in relation to sales.

[00:08:22] There's plenty of books on body language, but not in relation to selling.

[00:08:26] So I made that an entire chapter in my book.

[00:08:28] And it's still the number one most popular chapter I have because so many salespeople, they think they pay attention to body language, but they really don't.

[00:08:36] They'll recognize something, but they do nothing about it.

[00:08:39] They just keep yapping and talking and not listening and ignoring all these obvious body language tells in front of them.

[00:08:44] So it was body language.

[00:08:46] It was psychology.

[00:08:47] It was, again, not rocket science, but it was basic stuff that they were not training.

[00:08:53] And I eventually, when I started my academy, I basically came up with the term, you got to become the anti-salesperson.

[00:09:02] Because if you're the salesperson that they're expecting, the high pressure guy, the shawarmy guy, the guy that doesn't listen, you're just going to become a commodity.

[00:09:10] If you are not that person within the first 10 minutes, they're going to be like a breath of fresh air.

[00:09:14] They'll be like, oh my God, this guy is actually asking me some really good questions.

[00:09:18] I like him and you'll have a much better chance of selling.

[00:09:20] I always like to tell people, don't be like the person, like the hundred people that came before you that tried and failed.

[00:09:28] Yeah, exactly.

[00:09:30] Carson, I'm hearing Anthony and Arino's episode with us.

[00:09:34] I'm hearing Lee Stahl's episode with us.

[00:09:37] And I want to go back, if you don't mind, Ellen, and just tell everybody in the audience that are listening to what you said at the beginning there.

[00:09:45] We could just unpack that for the next hour and it would be gold.

[00:09:49] You know, one thing I heard you say is that most companies now I would throw in if they train salespeople.

[00:09:58] Correct.

[00:09:59] If they train on products and product features and function.

[00:10:05] They don't train on actual sales.

[00:10:10] And you said people buy from emotion.

[00:10:13] They don't buy from logic.

[00:10:16] Like that for me, when I learned that right there in sales, everything in my world changed.

[00:10:23] Absolutely.

[00:10:25] Now, let me, I'm going to, I'm going to address that one second, but Bob Britton just put a note in the chat.

[00:10:31] Can I just answer him real quick?

[00:10:32] You sure can.

[00:10:33] Pull it up on screen and everything.

[00:10:35] Yeah.

[00:10:36] He said virtual meetings don't exactly help enable the understanding of body language.

[00:10:40] He's correct.

[00:10:41] It makes it more difficult, but don't think that if you sell over Zoom, you can't pay attention to body language.

[00:10:45] In fact, there are, there are so many tells, facial tells and torso tells and what they're doing with their hand that can give you incredible information in a Zoom call.

[00:10:58] So there is some body language stuff to definitely pay attention to when you're on a Zoom call.

[00:11:01] Ellen, why don't you go ahead and go into that?

[00:11:04] I mean, that's, that's a great topic, especially for our audience.

[00:11:06] I mean, like right there, Carson and I both just sat up and here you go.

[00:11:15] Yeah.

[00:11:16] You make a point like not to make sure you're sitting there like this and we had a slouching or, but like here's one point that, that from a psychological standpoint that will build trust without you even opening your mouth.

[00:11:28] It's showing your hands about 70% of the time.

[00:11:31] Don't have your, don't have your face cut off here and you're just a talking head.

[00:11:36] They want to see your body and you want to show and use gestures with your hands.

[00:11:40] Don't hide your hands.

[00:11:41] Showing hands.

[00:11:42] Yeah.

[00:11:43] You're doing it fine.

[00:11:44] But if you're too close and they can't see your hand gestures, that will lower the trust factor on their end.

[00:11:50] Good tip.

[00:11:51] The other thing, and this is so obvious, but most of sales is not rocket science, but most sales reps don't do anything like this, but don't glance away from the screen.

[00:12:00] Don't look at your phone.

[00:12:02] You know, if you're talking to someone and you see them like a stance.

[00:12:06] This is a good look.

[00:12:08] Go like, you know, like if you see them go like this real quick, you know, you might be losing them.

[00:12:13] So there's some tells you, you, you, you watch one of the things here's, here's another one.

[00:12:17] I'll say when, if you're meeting someone for the first time in a sales conversation and it's virtual, you are going to get what I call a polite smile.

[00:12:25] It's when we meet someone, people get a polite smile.

[00:12:28] It's a fake smile.

[00:12:29] It's a, it's a smile that we do.

[00:12:31] Hey, nice to meet you.

[00:12:32] But there's ways to read a real smile.

[00:12:35] A real smile is when the eyes get squinty and you get the crow's feet on the side and the mouth goes up to the ears, not back.

[00:12:41] So if there, if during that conversation, you go from the polite smile at the beginning and then you start getting a real smile, it's a very good indication that you're doing well.

[00:12:52] That's real one easy thing to look at over Zoom.

[00:12:55] I love that.

[00:12:56] Keep going.

[00:12:57] Yeah.

[00:12:57] These are awesome nuggets.

[00:12:59] We did an episode with Julie.

[00:13:00] My hands here, not here.

[00:13:01] What I loved about the episode that we did with Julie Hanson was it was very focused on, you know, she has a, you know, a theater arts and an acting background.

[00:13:09] And so it was very much how to engage with the camera.

[00:13:13] And now that we have so much in this virtual and hybrid world, you've got to make sure you're interacting the right way.

[00:13:20] And I mean, even if I'm taking notes, a lot of times I'll say, hey, you know, Mr.

[00:13:24] Mrs.

[00:13:25] Customer, you know, excuse me if I don't want to appear like I'm not paying attention.

[00:13:28] I'm taking a couple of notes here and, you know, just making sure that you're actively engaged.

[00:13:33] But I mean, this is amazing.

[00:13:34] I love the diving into the body language piece.

[00:13:36] Yeah.

[00:13:36] Tell us more.

[00:13:37] No, what you just said, actually, what I was going to bring up, if, you know, if you're, if you're taking notes, make sure you let them know that you're taking notes.

[00:13:43] And I always say, hold up the notebook.

[00:13:46] Like, here, I'm taking notes just so you know.

[00:13:49] And now they're actually feeling like, oh, this guy's really listening to me.

[00:13:53] Yeah.

[00:13:54] And there's, I mean, you have so much little real estate to work with.

[00:13:59] But here's a crazy fact about body language.

[00:14:02] The body is broken into three pieces that you can read.

[00:14:06] The face, the arms, hands, and torso, and the legs and the feet.

[00:14:11] Okay.

[00:14:12] So when I do a body language seminar, I put those three things up and I ask everyone in the audience, what part of the body do you think is the most accurate to read of those three sections?

[00:14:20] And everyone always says the face.

[00:14:23] Actually, it's the feet.

[00:14:25] Because the feet are the furthest from the brain and your brain, your limbic brain controls body language.

[00:14:30] You never think about what your feet are doing, but you're always thinking about what your face is doing.

[00:14:35] So how often have we ever been making a face and then we go, oh, crap, I better stop making that face because I don't want that person to see it.

[00:14:40] We do it all the time.

[00:14:42] But I call it like the body language horse has left the barn.

[00:14:45] It's or you've already made the face.

[00:14:46] So we're not, you know, FBI agents interviewing serial killers in a basement.

[00:14:53] So facial expressions will be fairly accurate to normal people, but you got to be paying attention.

[00:14:59] You do something what I call, it's like the TSA expression.

[00:15:03] If you see something, say something.

[00:15:05] If you see someone purse their lips after you say something, that is a great indication they didn't like what you said.

[00:15:11] And if you don't stop and say, you know what, let me pause here for a minute, Brandon.

[00:15:16] Did what I just say, you know, did you understand what I just said or how's everything sounding so far?

[00:15:20] You're giving them an opportunity to address why they made that body language tell.

[00:15:27] They may not even know that they did it.

[00:15:29] But now if they purse their lips or they do something negative, they're not listening to you anymore.

[00:15:34] And a typical salesperson will just keep lathering on and on and on and wonder why they didn't make the sale.

[00:15:38] So, Ellen, in that situation, would you would you recommend?

[00:15:44] I mean, I'm sure it's all situational, but would you recommend saying like, you know, hey, Ellen, it appears like maybe there you had a little bit of a challenge.

[00:15:52] What I just said there because you saw the purse lips or something or would you take it that head on or would you just do more of the pause and ask that open ended question?

[00:16:02] I love the I love using the phrase.

[00:16:04] You know what?

[00:16:05] You know what, Brandon?

[00:16:06] Let me pause here for a minute because I saw you do something or I said something.

[00:16:10] You scratched your ear, which means you didn't really like what I said or you pursed your lips.

[00:16:15] And I said, you know what, Brandon?

[00:16:16] Let me pause here for a minute.

[00:16:17] I sometimes I sometimes talk way too technical.

[00:16:21] How's everything sound so far?

[00:16:23] And that's going to do two things.

[00:16:24] It's going to make you feel like you're listening.

[00:16:26] I'm listening to you.

[00:16:27] I'm paying attention.

[00:16:28] I'm understanding you.

[00:16:29] And it's going to give you the opportunity to tell you how to sell it to tell me how to sell you.

[00:16:33] So you're going to say, yeah, you know what?

[00:16:34] I don't really care about the energy efficiency of the glass.

[00:16:37] All I care about is the color on the outside of the window.

[00:16:39] Great.

[00:16:40] I'm glad you told me that, Brandon.

[00:16:41] Let's talk about that.

[00:16:43] Now you just told me how to sell you.

[00:16:44] And I'm not talking about anything you don't want to hear anymore.

[00:16:47] Even though as a sales rep, we all think the customer has to hear about everything.

[00:16:52] We've got to tell them everything from A to Z.

[00:16:55] Everything's got to be said.

[00:16:56] Nothing is further from the truth.

[00:16:58] The customer wants to hear what's going to make them feel good and solve their problem.

[00:17:03] And that's it.

[00:17:04] The other stuff is just fluff.

[00:17:05] So, Alan, your journey is fascinating to me.

[00:17:08] So, you know, talk to us about the book, how it transformed what you did.

[00:17:14] And then now I would anticipate you're likely serving a very diverse sales population.

[00:17:21] You know, you're working with a lot of different industries, people that are selling into different industry verticals, different types of conversations.

[00:17:30] How do you translate, you know, your wealth of experience into today's seller?

[00:17:37] So, what I think I do that's unique is like a lot of what I've seen in my research, the sales training out there is fairly cookie cutter.

[00:17:46] I don't want to say cookie cutter, but they have their this course, that course, this course.

[00:17:49] And they think it's one size fits all.

[00:17:52] And that's not true.

[00:17:53] So, for example, I'll keep body language, for example.

[00:17:56] I have given my body language course.

[00:17:58] It's about a two-hour in-person course.

[00:18:00] Probably this year, 30 times.

[00:18:04] And I've given it from building material companies, real estate architects.

[00:18:10] And just yesterday, I did an arboreculturist company, a tree company.

[00:18:16] Wow.

[00:18:17] Okay.

[00:18:17] They have salespeople.

[00:18:19] You moved off that word.

[00:18:20] Yeah.

[00:18:20] I can't even say the word.

[00:18:21] And I trained them yesterday.

[00:18:23] But what I do is like here's the foundational body language course that I give.

[00:18:27] And then I'm going to customize it to what you sell.

[00:18:31] So, for example, this is a conversation you would have with a normal customer.

[00:18:35] This is the body language you might see.

[00:18:37] So, that's how I would answer your question, Carson, is look at who I'm talking to.

[00:18:43] What is the company?

[00:18:44] What's the vertical?

[00:18:45] And then how do I – because psychology is psychology.

[00:18:50] Human-to-human interaction is the same.

[00:18:52] I don't care what you're selling.

[00:18:54] It's just a matter of asking the right questions and adjusting it to the people you're speaking to.

[00:19:00] I just did training, virtual training for a company in Sweden.

[00:19:04] They had sales reps all over the world.

[00:19:06] And they had 20 sales reps literally.

[00:19:09] I think it was like 11 o'clock at night was the time I had to do this training.

[00:19:13] But, you know, they sold – you ready for this?

[00:19:16] They sold – how do I even explain it?

[00:19:19] They sold the ability to purchase property so you can get citizenship in a different country.

[00:19:25] That was their product.

[00:19:29] So, that's how I do it.

[00:19:31] Wow.

[00:19:32] Well, I'm going to take a little pause here, Ellen, not because you pursed your lips or anything or scratched your ear.

[00:19:39] But it looks like we have a new fan.

[00:19:43] First-time listener out there?

[00:19:45] Is that Simon?

[00:19:47] Hi, Simon.

[00:19:48] We got Simon coming too, but this Tom Burton guy seems to really find value in our show.

[00:19:53] Oh, yes.

[00:19:55] Please like and sub.

[00:19:58] Yeah.

[00:19:59] Hey, Tom, maybe someday if you keep listening, we'll let you be on the show with us.

[00:20:04] And then, yes, Alan, big fan you have out there.

[00:20:08] And Simon.

[00:20:09] Simon, welcome to the show.

[00:20:10] Thanks for joining us.

[00:20:11] He's awesome.

[00:20:12] You should have him on your show as well.

[00:20:14] The guy's terrific.

[00:20:15] I was just going to say that.

[00:20:16] Simon, we need to book you next.

[00:20:18] Yep, absolutely.

[00:20:20] We'll reach out for sure.

[00:20:22] Well, Ellen, I think, is there anything else on this before we move off of body language?

[00:20:30] I think our audience is going to love that tactical, practical side.

[00:20:34] Whenever we have shows that are very practical, you know, here's something to consider.

[00:20:38] Our downloads go nuts.

[00:20:40] Our comments and everything do really well.

[00:20:44] So is there anything else that you think this audience should know about around the nonverbals around that body language?

[00:20:52] I mean, don't treat every...

[00:20:57] If you're in a sales situation where you're on a lot of Zooms, let's say you've got two appointments a day, three appointments a day, and there's a lot of us out there that are doing that.

[00:21:07] That's how they're selling.

[00:21:08] It can get very easy for this to be mundane and very repetitive.

[00:21:14] Just keep in mind, even though you have 20 appointments, you're that person's only appointment.

[00:21:19] And it's like, you know, the little girl trying to save the starfish on the beach.

[00:21:24] And the guy says, why are you saving all the starfish?

[00:21:26] There's a million more in the ocean.

[00:21:27] She goes, well, it matters to the one in my hand.

[00:21:30] Like that customer, your conversation matters to them.

[00:21:33] And even though you may have 15 more appointments, you've got to treat that as if that's your only appointment for the week.

[00:21:39] And if you do that, if you have that mindset and have that excited body language, you'll just be more successful in sales for sure.

[00:21:46] I love how you parlayed the fundamentals, the foundation into what the reality is today.

[00:21:52] Because you summed it up.

[00:21:53] I mean, there's so many days now where I think back to a time five, 10 years ago where I would get in the car, I'd head up north, and then I just hit meeting.

[00:22:03] Yeah, I might hit three, four, five, six meetings in a day as I headed south, you know, grab some lunch in the car.

[00:22:09] But you're a road warrior.

[00:22:10] And now you might have 10 or more back-to-back calls, and you've got to bring your A game.

[00:22:17] Yeah.

[00:22:18] One of them.

[00:22:18] But it's those foundational pieces and how they translate to modern selling.

[00:22:23] It still goes back to how am I showing up uniquely?

[00:22:28] And a lot of sellers are there not doing it.

[00:22:30] They're not paying attention to the P's and Q's.

[00:22:32] They're not, you know, minding their manners of taking notes.

[00:22:36] They're not engaging with the camera in a way that is meaningful to that customer.

[00:22:40] And the ones who are doing it, they're the ones who are having that lasting impression.

[00:22:45] At the end of the day, it all comes down to creating and nurturing relationships.

[00:22:48] And that's why I love how you translated that, Alan.

[00:22:51] That's what all the sellers that are paying attention today need to soak in.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:57] Yeah.

[00:22:57] And if you don't do these things, if you don't pay attention to body language and think about the psychology of how they're thinking about emotionally, you just become a number, which means you're a commodity.

[00:23:09] And then it's a race to the bottom.

[00:23:12] You cannot become a commodity.

[00:23:13] That's a bad name.

[00:23:15] Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:17] Alan, you mentioned, you know, show up with energy and excitement.

[00:23:22] What does that look like for people?

[00:23:24] I mean, it's, I think it's easy to tell a salesperson, hey, be energetic.

[00:23:28] But a lot of times they don't know exactly what that means.

[00:23:32] It can be too much.

[00:23:33] They can be too little.

[00:23:34] How do you, how do you coach him?

[00:23:36] What practically does that mean?

[00:23:38] I think it just practically means be yourself and don't, and don't treat, don't treat the appointment as if it's just another appointment because the other person will feel that.

[00:23:48] So I'm not saying to, to be overly, you know, overly energetic because that'll come across as fake, but just be yourself.

[00:23:56] And, and really customers only want really two things.

[00:24:00] They want to know that you're listening to them and that you understand them.

[00:24:04] That's really what they want to know.

[00:24:06] And once they know that, I, I call this, the analogy I use when I train this is every sales conversation takes place on two islands.

[00:24:15] There's two islands that you have to, that you have to visit.

[00:24:17] The first one, I call it ALU Island, ask, listen and understand island.

[00:24:23] Okay.

[00:24:23] But there's a little bridge that, that, that connects ALU Island to the second island, which is called Selmy Island.

[00:24:30] Okay.

[00:24:31] The problem is all the reps start on ALU Island.

[00:24:34] And after one question, they run over to Selmy Island immediately and they start selling, they start selling the customer.

[00:24:41] Okay.

[00:24:42] The customer is not ready to be sold yet.

[00:24:44] So I tell everyone on that bridge is a drawbridge arm and that drawbridge arm is down.

[00:24:50] And the only person that's going to lift that arm and invite you over to Selmy Island is who?

[00:24:55] The customer.

[00:24:56] And you only get that permission from the customer.

[00:24:59] When you ask enough open-ended questions, you listen and understand them.

[00:25:03] And if you do that right, they will beg you to come over to Selmy Island.

[00:25:07] They will literally say, okay, great.

[00:25:08] This is awesome.

[00:25:09] Show me what you got.

[00:25:10] And now you're in Selmy Island.

[00:25:11] Now you're on Selmy Island.

[00:25:12] But most reps over 90% jump on Selmy Island within the first 10 minutes of the call or the first time they hear the problem.

[00:25:20] And that's when they become a commodity.

[00:25:23] Well, I think it goes back to something you said earlier, Alan.

[00:25:26] We're trained.

[00:25:27] If you can call that what we get, we're trained to pitch products and services.

[00:25:32] We're trained to come in and verbal vomit everything that's great about my product and hope that something we say the customer latches onto and then we zero in on that.

[00:25:43] And I think, honestly, there's no malice intended from a lot of sellers.

[00:25:47] I think a lot of sellers.

[00:25:47] No, not at all.

[00:25:48] They get nervous when they wind up in these situations.

[00:25:51] Their heart is in the right place, but they're not getting adequate training.

[00:25:56] And they don't know how to earn the right to get the drawbridge to come down.

[00:26:00] How can sellers today do a better job of earning that right to have the drawbridge come down for them?

[00:26:07] It's very, very simple.

[00:26:09] Ask open-ended questions.

[00:26:10] I know it's the silliest thing to say in sales because it seems so obvious, but I listen to sales calls all the time.

[00:26:18] I go on ride-alongs with reps all the time.

[00:26:20] And I can count on my left hand how many times I hear open-ended questions because the brain defaults to closed-ended questions.

[00:26:27] The brain will default to, do you have any questions, instead of, what questions do you have?

[00:26:33] That's a simple one right there.

[00:26:35] But every single sales rep will end an email or end a conversation with, do you have any questions?

[00:26:41] And the knee-jerk response to every human brain is, no, I'm all set.

[00:26:44] I'm good because you're not giving the brain the chance to think about what questions you have.

[00:26:48] So asking open-ended questions, let me give you a practical example.

[00:26:53] Okay?

[00:26:54] I'm going to give you, I talk about this.

[00:26:56] It's a funny example, but it makes a lot of sense.

[00:26:58] So let's say you're a roofer.

[00:27:00] Okay?

[00:27:00] You're a roofing salesman.

[00:27:02] And you go to a house and the guy answers the door and he says, hey, my garage is, the roof is leaking in my garage.

[00:27:09] Okay?

[00:27:09] Typical roofing salesman.

[00:27:11] Awesome.

[00:27:11] Let me show you my shingles.

[00:27:13] We've got architectural.

[00:27:14] We've got three tab.

[00:27:15] We've got metal.

[00:27:15] It comes in 10 different colors.

[00:27:17] We use this drip edge, blah, blah, blah.

[00:27:19] You start puking all the features, right?

[00:27:23] Better salesman.

[00:27:25] Open-ended listening salesman.

[00:27:26] Hey, how can I help you?

[00:27:27] Well, my roof is leaking in my garage.

[00:27:29] Really?

[00:27:30] Tell me more about that.

[00:27:32] Well, it's been leaking for three years.

[00:27:35] Really?

[00:27:35] In what ways has that affected your life?

[00:27:38] Oh, well, you know what?

[00:27:39] It's been leaking on my wife's Christmas decorations for three years.

[00:27:44] Now I just found the real problem.

[00:27:46] The leak is the fake problem.

[00:27:48] Now I found the real problem.

[00:27:50] One more open-ended question.

[00:27:51] Describe for me how Christmas has been for you in the last three years.

[00:27:54] The guy's like, oh, my God, it's been terrible.

[00:27:56] I need my roof fixed.

[00:27:57] He just invited me over to sell me island because all I did was ask three questions.

[00:28:01] That's a very simple example of that.

[00:28:04] But it's amazing how many reps don't follow that tactic.

[00:28:09] As soon as they hear the problem, boom, let me show you what I got to solve it.

[00:28:12] I love that.

[00:28:13] And it goes back to what you said earlier, too, Alan, about the emotion piece.

[00:28:17] One of my favorite questions I've ever asked a customer or a customer executive was, what do you want your legacy to be here?

[00:28:23] And having them articulate this path of what looks like a win to them, what would be really meaningful and tangible, and then ways that I could uniquely add value in that path.

[00:28:32] It had nothing to do with a product or a service or a solution.

[00:28:36] It was all about the relationship.

[00:28:37] And I think that's the key element is once you hone in on what would be a meaningful interaction or a meaningful outcome of that relationship, then you're on to something.

[00:28:47] Absolutely.

[00:28:48] Yeah.

[00:28:50] Sales is emotional.

[00:28:52] We've all heard the term, or most of us have heard the term, sell the hole, not the drill.

[00:28:57] Have we heard that term before?

[00:28:59] Yeah.

[00:28:59] It's actually one step further than that, okay?

[00:29:02] Because most sales reps are trained to sell the drill.

[00:29:05] Here are the features.

[00:29:06] It's 18 volts.

[00:29:07] It's got a light on it.

[00:29:08] It has three bits, blah, blah, blah.

[00:29:10] It comes in green, red, yellow, all that stuff.

[00:29:13] Now you're supposed to say, why do you need the drill?

[00:29:16] I need the drill for a hole.

[00:29:18] Great.

[00:29:19] And then they start selling the drill again.

[00:29:20] Here's the next question.

[00:29:22] Why do you need the hole?

[00:29:24] So you actually start with why they need the hole to the hole and then the features of the drill.

[00:29:31] If you don't know why he's drilling the hole in the first place, there's no emotion to the sale.

[00:29:37] Now you find out why you're drilling the hole.

[00:29:39] Well, I'm hanging a picture of my grandfather from World War II.

[00:29:42] There you go.

[00:29:42] Whoa.

[00:29:43] What kind of – that's amazing information right there.

[00:29:45] That starts a story.

[00:29:46] Now he's buying a drill no matter what features are on it.

[00:29:49] So good.

[00:29:49] I like what you did in both your examples there, Alan.

[00:29:53] The one with you need to drill the hole to hang the picture of your grandfather from World War II or on the Christmas one.

[00:29:59] Because – and you touched on this earlier about the psychology of it.

[00:30:03] They want to feel good about the purchase they're making.

[00:30:08] And when we're able to get to have those conversations about that deeper why, this is important to them.

[00:30:16] My wife's Christmas decorations are getting messed up and I've got to go buy new ones every year or I've got to go clean them every year or whatever it may be.

[00:30:24] And you can then connect with them on that level like, oh, my gosh.

[00:30:28] You know, oh, my gosh.

[00:30:29] If my wife's Christmas decorations got dirty, I'd be cleaning them for an hour.

[00:30:33] Whatever it may be to connect at that level.

[00:30:36] And it just – it blocks out competition.

[00:30:39] It makes that, like, that psychological connection with them.

[00:30:43] And you're invited over to Selmy Island.

[00:30:46] That's what I was hearing.

[00:30:48] That's exactly right.

[00:30:49] Because if you think about it, let's say he had three roofers over and the first two showed him the shingles and the drip edge and the underlayment and the colors and that's it.

[00:30:58] And then the third one did what I just said.

[00:31:01] Who is he buying the roof from?

[00:31:03] It's not even close.

[00:31:04] He's buying the roof from the guy who asked the questions and talked about the Christmas decorations.

[00:31:08] It's as simple as that.

[00:31:09] The price or the schedule to do the roof doesn't become as important.

[00:31:17] I don't mean they're not important, but they're not as important because connection.

[00:31:22] Correct.

[00:31:23] Correct.

[00:31:23] And the other thing I would say here with regard to emotion, and this is another critical thing that a lot of sales reps miss,

[00:31:30] is you want to put the customer, the prospect, in the position of imagining what it's like to own your product or service.

[00:31:38] They need to imagine that.

[00:31:40] They need to think about that.

[00:31:41] So you need to say statements like, imagine what it would be like to be running this software and have a 30% better margin next year.

[00:31:51] Have them think about that, not just tell them you're going to have a 30% better margin next year.

[00:31:57] That's not emotional.

[00:31:58] That's just a fact.

[00:31:59] But imagine what it would be like when you're sitting at your computer, Carson, and you've got 30% more revenue than you had this year.

[00:32:07] Imagine, think of those numbers, Carson, and you'd be like, wow, that's wow.

[00:32:13] And now it becomes, that's emotional.

[00:32:15] Now they want your product.

[00:32:17] So once you put a person in a position to imagine what it's like to own it, it's easier to sell it.

[00:32:24] I love the, you know, again, the way that these foundational fundamental pieces transcend industry and can be applied anywhere.

[00:32:34] Alan, I want to hear more about, you know, I want to talk a little bit about your book and branding.

[00:32:38] You know, one thing that I've definitely seen that's changed about sales over the last, you know, couple of decades has been this ability that we now have to do podcasts and shows and to leverage social media to, you know, really proliferate our brand and get out and touch people in ways that we never would have imagined previously.

[00:32:57] And I love your journey where, you know, you took this unique way of selling, you wrote a book, and then you parlayed it into a new experience.

[00:33:06] I'd love to hear your thoughts of like, how has branding, reputation, and then some of these new mediums like social media, how do they play into your arsenal today?

[00:33:17] Well, I've got to tell you, I probably wouldn't be here.

[00:33:21] I'm not sure where I would be if it wasn't for COVID, to be honest.

[00:33:24] I know COVID was pretty awful, but COVID, a lot of great things came out of COVID.

[00:33:28] And the one thing that COVID forced me to do was create this business in a different way because I wrote my book.

[00:33:35] It came out and I thought I was on the runway at the end of 2019 to start my business.

[00:33:39] And COVID said, nah, not so fast.

[00:33:41] You're not going to do that.

[00:33:42] But I was just diving in without much thought.

[00:33:45] And then COVID forced me to create an online brand.

[00:33:49] It forced me to dive into LinkedIn.

[00:33:52] It forced me to meet people like Simon and you guys.

[00:33:54] And I went from literally, I opened up LinkedIn and I had 65 followers, you know, when my book came out.

[00:34:01] And now I have over 15,000 because I dove in and I followed people and what they were doing.

[00:34:07] And I built the personal brand.

[00:34:08] And I'm very, very cognizant of everything I do following my brand.

[00:34:13] You know, the name, the colors, everything.

[00:34:16] I try to do that.

[00:34:17] And I try to stay very consistent.

[00:34:19] But it ain't easy for sure.

[00:34:21] And it's gotten easier with other, these softwares and apps that can help you do things.

[00:34:28] But I think everyone, even salespeople that work for different companies, people will always buy you.

[00:34:36] They're buying the people.

[00:34:38] Yeah, they're buying software and everything.

[00:34:39] But if both pieces of software are exactly the same, they're going to buy from the person they like more.

[00:34:45] And you have to have a personal brand on LinkedIn.

[00:34:47] If you're mining and prospecting on LinkedIn and you just have Joe Smith, software salesperson from ABC Company, you're about as boring as boring can be.

[00:34:59] You have to have a really good personal brand on LinkedIn because people want to do business with you.

[00:35:04] And Alan, what does that mean to you?

[00:35:05] What is what is the personal brand mean?

[00:35:09] What do you do?

[00:35:10] How do you do it?

[00:35:12] What does that look like?

[00:35:13] You want to let's stick with LinkedIn since this is where we are.

[00:35:17] And I think most people live here.

[00:35:18] You want your your LinkedIn is not is not a place for your resume.

[00:35:22] You're going to have your resume if you're applying for a job, but it's not a resume.

[00:35:25] You want to show what you do, how you help people, not what you do.

[00:35:30] So, for example, instead of saying sales trainer under my name, I have I forget increase your sales with workshops and whatever it is.

[00:35:39] I tell people how I'm going to help them.

[00:35:41] That's what your banner should do as well.

[00:35:43] I mean, I see all the time on LinkedIn a guy with a picture with his dog and up and in the banner is like a picture of mountains because he was on vacation there the last year.

[00:35:53] I have no idea what you sell, what you do, how you're going to help me.

[00:35:56] So I'm moving on.

[00:35:58] But if you contact me and you have something to sell me and I go to your profile and I find out, wow, this guy has helped all these people.

[00:36:05] This is what he does.

[00:36:07] I got a much better you got a much better chance of selling me than the guy who has a picture of Syracuse University logos on his, you know, on his banner or stuff like that.

[00:36:15] So that's what I mean.

[00:36:17] You got to use LinkedIn as a mini website about yourself and how you help people or help companies.

[00:36:24] Alan, as you went from 65 followers to 15,000, what would you say were the key?

[00:36:31] You talked about your profile and making it look right and say the right things.

[00:36:36] But what are the two or three key activities that you did to get there?

[00:36:42] Well, it's a combination of you got to post consistently.

[00:36:47] And I know it's a pain in the neck, but you got to post consistently.

[00:36:51] Video is much better than regular posts, but you can do, you know, two or three a week, one text, one video, one picture, whatever you want to do.

[00:36:59] You got to post consistently.

[00:37:00] But the key, the key is, is goes hand in hand is reaching out and connecting with people and then commenting on their stuff.

[00:37:08] You got to comment on their stuff because once you comment, you're no longer a, a, a stranger because people will read comments.

[00:37:17] People read every single comment that on stuff that they post.

[00:37:20] And if you want to get someone in your circle and it's like, it's like I tell people I'd rather, if someone tells me to make a hundred cold calls, no, I'd rather spend my time making 10 warm calls that I got from LinkedIn than a hundred cold calls of people that I don't know.

[00:37:35] Because if you're connecting on LinkedIn and you're commenting back and forth, you're no longer a cold call.

[00:37:40] You're a warm call.

[00:37:41] And, and you can look, Hey, we just connected on LinkedIn and we share these comments.

[00:37:45] How are you doing today?

[00:37:46] That's going to get you a lot further than, hi, I'm calling from ABC company and I sell this widget.

[00:37:50] This is one of the best episodes ever in the way of the commentary, like the, the anecdotes that you're dropping and the practical advice.

[00:37:59] Alan, are there any really great, what I love to like, just even your positive story about like what for you came out of the pandemic.

[00:38:09] I think it's, it's pretty incredible that, you know, like four plus years ago, I wasn't even thinking about ever being on a podcast, but it started naturally happening.

[00:38:20] As a result of, Hey, we can connect geographically with anybody, anywhere talking about anything.

[00:38:26] And it became relevant and people started consuming this because their commutes were going away.

[00:38:31] And, um, it's just incredible to me.

[00:38:33] Tell us more about the positive things that you've kind of seen as your journey has, has changed over the last four or five years.

[00:38:42] You know, have there been any unique stories or opportunities that have come out of what you've done with your personal brand and how you've transformed your business?

[00:38:50] Well, I loved, um, I loved the fact that prior to COVID, you know, LinkedIn was there, but LinkedIn was not used as it is today at all.

[00:39:00] It was mostly a, a referral and a, and a, a site for resumes and for finding jobs.

[00:39:07] And all the fences came down when COVID happened.

[00:39:10] We were literally, I tell, I met Simon, I met Simon over COVID and he lives in Bath, England.

[00:39:16] And the one thing that came out of it, Carson, that, that I liked that you asked this question, because I, it, it, it makes me feel good when I think back on this.

[00:39:25] The Friday, so I'm in Rhode Island, uh, in the United States, I'm in Rhode Island.

[00:39:30] And I remember March 13th, very vividly, it was a Friday.

[00:39:32] That's when Rhode Island shut down.

[00:39:34] And I was taking a shower that night and I was just literally an aha shower moment.

[00:39:39] We all have those aha moments in the shower.

[00:39:41] And the phrase play don't play don't pause entered my mind, meaning we need to hit the play button right now, not the pause button.

[00:39:49] Because everybody was freaking out and stopping what they were doing.

[00:39:53] And I just grabbed a handful of friends, business friends that were in the state, three or four of us.

[00:39:58] And I said, let's meet once a week just to support each other so we can get through this.

[00:40:03] And the first meeting was five of us.

[00:40:06] And I called it the play don't pause group.

[00:40:08] And then I opened it up on LinkedIn.

[00:40:10] And I got to tell you, and Simon can attest to this.

[00:40:14] I think at the end of the day, at some point I had over a hundred people that were, that were joined.

[00:40:18] And every single Friday at 11 a.m., we had anywhere from 20 to 40 people on this group.

[00:40:24] And it became this amazing support group that turned into a networking group.

[00:40:28] But it started with support and turned into people sharing business.

[00:40:33] And we all became very good friends.

[00:40:35] Like I still taught, I did the group for about three years.

[00:40:38] And then I finally, I just couldn't do it anymore.

[00:40:40] But we met every Friday almost religiously for three straight years.

[00:40:44] And that's the thing that I think about from COVID, that I made so many good friends.

[00:40:50] I made so many great connections.

[00:40:53] And they're all still friends today.

[00:40:55] So it was one of those things where it forced me to do that and helped everybody.

[00:40:59] So amazing.

[00:41:00] Amazing.

[00:41:02] What I think is the applicable advice that I take away from that, Alan, is as a seller, as a leader, in every challenge or every time you feel like the rug's been pulled out from under you, there's opportunity.

[00:41:14] You just got to look the right area for it.

[00:41:17] This show might exist if it hadn't been for the pandemic, but I wouldn't be part of it.

[00:41:22] I wouldn't even know these guys.

[00:41:24] Because, you know, I think, like to your point, I had leveraged LinkedIn a lot pre-pandemic to earn meetings with people, but mostly in person.

[00:41:34] I was using it as a social selling mechanism to get a connection, earn a meeting, and then get in the room.

[00:41:40] Because I knew what I could do once I got in the room.

[00:41:42] Then it's create the relationship, invest in the relationship, add value, et cetera.

[00:41:47] And it worked.

[00:41:48] But within the pandemic and this switch to hybrid work, it's changed everything about how we can meaningfully engage and even how we can do things like this.

[00:41:59] For me, like I was telling somebody the other day, the coolest thing about me or podcasts for me or being on them is opportunities like this.

[00:42:08] Learning from the best of the best, talking to people that, you know, you and I might never meet in person.

[00:42:13] I hope we do, but we never meet in person.

[00:42:16] But the fact that I've been able to learn from you for the last 45 minutes is game-changing for me as a seller and as a human.

[00:42:22] So thank you.

[00:42:23] No, you're welcome, man.

[00:42:24] And I agree with you.

[00:42:25] Go ahead, Brandon.

[00:42:26] No, that's right.

[00:42:27] Go ahead, Alan.

[00:42:28] You're the guest.

[00:42:28] I agree with you because it was so cool to me, and it still is cool, that I can contact someone who lives in California.

[00:42:35] We can hop on a Zoom in 10 minutes and get to know each other, where I don't even think that would have entered my mind prior to the pandemic.

[00:42:42] You know, it just wouldn't.

[00:42:43] So everything has completely changed.

[00:42:45] And again, so many bad things came out of the pandemic.

[00:42:48] You know, it was an awful time.

[00:42:49] But, you know, necessity is the mother of invention, and so many great things have come from it, for sure.

[00:42:54] I want to give Simon some play here.

[00:42:57] This is another great thing about live shows, right?

[00:42:59] We can bring the comments and other people in.

[00:43:01] But love this part when you were talking about publishing, commenting, showing up.

[00:43:08] I mean, you nailed it and Simon added that.

[00:43:11] And it's true.

[00:43:12] The algorithm loves comments.

[00:43:14] And what I like to share with people is when you go comment on somebody's post, and it could be a prospect's post, or most likely your best opportunity is, who are the top 100 people who influence your buyers?

[00:43:31] Because those people tend to be the consultancy authors.

[00:43:34] They publish all the time.

[00:43:36] But what happens with the algorithm is the algorithm sees you two connected.

[00:43:41] It doesn't show they came to you or you come to them.

[00:43:45] It doesn't matter.

[00:43:45] The algorithm just shows you two are engaging with each other.

[00:43:49] And it's an action that you can control by intentionally going out and commenting on other people's posts.

[00:43:55] I just wanted to make that.

[00:43:57] And then, of course, big shout out for Alan from Simon.

[00:44:01] The magic of your group was that you gave everyone a voice.

[00:44:06] Good stuff.

[00:44:07] Thank you, Simon.

[00:44:08] I appreciate that.

[00:44:10] And I had another question.

[00:44:13] I'm not used to moderating.

[00:44:14] That's usually Tom's job.

[00:44:17] I had a question, and I forgot what it was.

[00:44:20] So, Carson, you...

[00:44:21] So, actually, let me answer Andrew McNerland.

[00:44:25] Andrew asked me a question on why I have the caps in my profile.

[00:44:29] Because when you comment, Andrew, the first, I think, eight or nine words of your profile show up in the comments.

[00:44:36] So, when other people are reading your comment, you stand out, and they will read your comment and see what you do.

[00:44:42] If you just have your name and regular type and, you know, software engineer, that's boring.

[00:44:49] No one's going to read that.

[00:44:50] The every name in caps and, you know, sales training for whatever, and this is how you help people.

[00:44:56] People will read that, and it's part of your actual comment.

[00:44:59] So, that's why I do that.

[00:45:00] Wow.

[00:45:01] That's good stuff.

[00:45:03] Andrew will run with that, too.

[00:45:04] He's a good guy.

[00:45:06] He'll take that and run with it.

[00:45:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:45:09] Alan, so, I totally forgot what my other question was because I've just been over here enjoying all the nuggets.

[00:45:16] But we had talked before, like in our agenda, we had talked about selling authentically.

[00:45:24] How do you coach sellers to be genuine or authentic?

[00:45:29] I know we talked about a lot of the open-ended questions, waiting to be invited to sell me island.

[00:45:35] But how do you train salespeople to just relax in the process and be more genuine in their conversations?

[00:45:46] By knowing their stuff so well that it just sounds like a regular conversation.

[00:45:51] And here's what I mean by this.

[00:45:54] I'll do this quite often if I'm in front of a group of people.

[00:45:57] I did it yesterday.

[00:45:58] And I ask everyone, who in this room has ever seen a movie?

[00:46:02] Okay?

[00:46:02] So, everybody raises their hand.

[00:46:04] Has anyone ever watched a movie and thought to yourself, oh, they're reading a script?

[00:46:09] Barely ever happens.

[00:46:11] Because the actors know the script so well that it comes across as natural.

[00:46:17] So, if you know your stuff so well, backward and forward, even though you know you have to say it, if it sounds like a script, the brain will shut you off.

[00:46:26] Yeah.

[00:46:27] It's actually been proven.

[00:46:27] I read a study about this that I think Cornell did a couple of months ago.

[00:46:31] And they said, they tested whatever it was, a thousand people.

[00:46:35] As soon as the tone of a script or something that came across as a script entered their mind, they literally, their brain turned off.

[00:46:43] The colors changed colors.

[00:46:45] They shut you off.

[00:46:46] Is that why we tune out politicians on teleprompters?

[00:46:49] Yeah.

[00:46:50] It's literally like the brain does something.

[00:46:53] It does something to the brain.

[00:46:54] But if you know your stuff to the point where you can just have a conversation about it and it doesn't sound like a script, that's when you come across as authentic because you really are.

[00:47:03] Then you ask really good questions based on their answers and you don't follow an ABC formula.

[00:47:08] But you have it in your brain enough where you can be nimble and move around where you need to move around.

[00:47:14] That, to me, is sales authenticity.

[00:47:16] I'm interested, too, Alan.

[00:47:18] And from your observation, what else is missing from today's sales training?

[00:47:25] We need to have a show for that.

[00:47:27] Seriously.

[00:47:28] I just with sometimes I see just my casual observation.

[00:47:34] It's challenging to create and maintain a sales culture, a true sales culture in organizations for a variety of reasons.

[00:47:42] I think sometimes we bring in people from the outside that don't know the culture.

[00:47:46] They're bringing in their own stuff.

[00:47:49] And it's just very challenging to naturally create and maintain a sales culture.

[00:47:53] What do you think is probably most missing from sales training today?

[00:47:58] How could we improve it with just like a couple of big home run type activities?

[00:48:06] Boy, the first thing I'll say, because I've been asked this question more than once, and this is an unfortunate answer.

[00:48:12] I think sales leadership right now is very poor.

[00:48:15] I don't see a lot of great sales leaders out there.

[00:48:17] All I see are sales leaders who admonish their sales team, who just think about numbers.

[00:48:23] They don't treat them like humans.

[00:48:24] And Swaya has such a high turnover rate.

[00:48:26] They don't let them enjoy their jobs.

[00:48:30] And they may be getting pressure from the owners, whatever it is.

[00:48:33] But I talk to so many sales reps, and all they do is complain about their sales management.

[00:48:38] And you know why?

[00:48:39] Because maybe they used to be a good seller.

[00:48:42] They got promoted.

[00:48:43] They weren't ready for it.

[00:48:44] They think they still need or want to be the hero.

[00:48:46] And all they get is the beat down from the boss.

[00:48:49] And they turn around and they micromanage because they don't know anything else.

[00:48:52] Yeah.

[00:48:53] Yeah, exactly.

[00:48:54] And most really good salespeople don't make really good managers.

[00:48:59] You know, they just don't.

[00:49:00] Because half the time they don't want to be a manager.

[00:49:02] But when they do think, I think I want to be a manager now because I'm tired of running all the appointments, they're just not good at it because they have zero management training or leadership skills or anything like that.

[00:49:12] So that would be number one.

[00:49:15] But as far as sales culture is concerned, you know, culture is an interesting thing because obviously everyone's humans and everyone has different personalities and all of that stuff.

[00:49:25] But what I found that really helps a sales culture is instead of treating everyone like an individual salesperson and it's Brandon versus Carson and who had a better month, you need to, you know, high tides raise all boats.

[00:49:40] You need to be treated as a team.

[00:49:41] Yes.

[00:49:42] And when people are part of a team, I want Carson to be happy that Brandon had a great month, not pissed off that Brandon had a great month.

[00:49:50] And so many sales teams are pitted against each other.

[00:49:55] They do, you know, contests are great.

[00:49:57] Contests are good.

[00:49:57] But contests shouldn't be individual.

[00:49:59] You should put people in teams.

[00:50:00] And I always tell people, if you have a contest, put the top guy with the worst guy.

[00:50:05] That's your first team.

[00:50:06] And your second guy with your second worst guy.

[00:50:08] And on down the line.

[00:50:09] And then all of these teams start to help each other.

[00:50:12] They lift everybody up.

[00:50:14] So I think that's a huge thing that's missing in sales culture is the concept of sales is not an individual sport.

[00:50:21] It's a team sport.

[00:50:22] I love it.

[00:50:23] That's what made me better, frankly, was I was always with the mindset, number one, let me go out.

[00:50:28] And if somebody's achieving something, they're selling the widget, they're hitting the metric, whatever it is, I want to know.

[00:50:34] I want to go out.

[00:50:35] I want to find that person.

[00:50:36] I want to figure out what they're doing.

[00:50:37] And I want to assimilate that into my arsenal.

[00:50:38] And second, that's why on the flip side, I always just give.

[00:50:43] I have no problems about telling anybody or everybody my playbook.

[00:50:49] I don't care if my competition knows it.

[00:50:52] Competition's good.

[00:50:53] It means that the experience that the end user gets is going to be superior because we are fighting to give that best experience.

[00:51:00] And we're doing things the right way.

[00:51:02] So I love that.

[00:51:03] I could not agree more with doing recognition and creating a culture that lifts everybody up.

[00:51:10] Yeah.

[00:51:11] And I think if you do that, you'll have a really successful team.

[00:51:14] You know, when I do a sales training and I end it with some, I'll do some motivational stuff.

[00:51:19] There's a clip I play from Ted Lasso.

[00:51:23] I think everybody knows the show Ted Lasso, right?

[00:51:25] And there's a scene.

[00:51:26] Vehicle fish.

[00:51:28] Yeah.

[00:51:29] There's a scene where I forget his name.

[00:51:31] He was the right-hand man of the woman who owned the team.

[00:51:34] And he had everyone over for Thanksgiving.

[00:51:36] And he stood up and he made a toast.

[00:51:38] And he said, to the family we're born with and to the family we make along the way.

[00:51:43] And I love that.

[00:51:45] And I end my sales training by saying, you all in here are family.

[00:51:50] Even though you're all individual sales reps, you're a family.

[00:51:53] And you need to work together as a team and all be successful.

[00:51:56] So I think that would echo what you're saying.

[00:52:00] Sometimes we get along better with our coworkers than our actual families.

[00:52:03] Yeah.

[00:52:06] That was Higgins, by the way.

[00:52:08] Higgins.

[00:52:08] Thank you.

[00:52:09] Thank you.

[00:52:09] He looked that up.

[00:52:10] He looked it up.

[00:52:11] I could tell.

[00:52:13] I remembered Higgins, but I couldn't remember his first name.

[00:52:18] And then it was – so I looked it up.

[00:52:20] And I remember it was Leslie.

[00:52:21] Leslie.

[00:52:22] Yeah, Leslie.

[00:52:22] He's the feminine junior.

[00:52:25] I heard they're bringing the show back.

[00:52:28] Oh, really?

[00:52:29] I heard they're making another season, or at least they're talking about it.

[00:52:32] Oh, boy.

[00:52:32] They're talking about it still.

[00:52:35] Well, Alan, you just said something that helps us kind of wrap this thing up.

[00:52:40] You said when you finish your sales training, you like to give them a little bit of motivation.

[00:52:47] You just gave us our one from Higgins.

[00:52:50] But what other motivation do you have for all the sales folks and leaders that lead sales out there?

[00:52:59] Wow.

[00:53:00] Big question.

[00:53:01] Here's what I would say.

[00:53:02] Here's a little piece of advice I would give to the sales people, sales reps.

[00:53:09] Even if you're working for another company, have the mindset that it's your own company, that what you're selling is your own company.

[00:53:18] So in the in-home world, if you're selling windows, it's your own window company.

[00:53:22] Don't sit back and wait for the company to give you the leads.

[00:53:27] Don't be the lazy person getting the leads from the company.

[00:53:30] Now, in the B2B world, I know there has to be a lot of prospecting as well, but there's still the thought process of the mindset of I have to do this for my company.

[00:53:40] If you just switch that a little bit to this is my company, I'm selling this software, you actually will just work harder.

[00:53:47] It will mean more to you if you just switch that mindset.

[00:53:50] So treat what you're selling as if it's your own company and you'll actually have a much more successful selling career rather than, oh, I got to make 100 calls today because, you know, Joe, you know, my manager said I have to rather than I got to make 100 calls today because I want to make some money because this is my company.

[00:54:09] So when it comes to commissions, it is your company, right?

[00:54:12] 100 percent.

[00:54:12] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:54:14] Yeah.

[00:54:14] And by the way, Alan, just before we wrap up, if we did Carson and I competing against each other, I wouldn't even have a chance.

[00:54:23] Don't sell yourself short, Brandon.

[00:54:25] You got to have good confidence, too.

[00:54:26] Oh, no, I'm confident in me.

[00:54:29] He's just a freaking machine.

[00:54:33] There are ways that I think good sellers, they know what they're good at.

[00:54:37] They know what they're not.

[00:54:38] They know how to double down on their strengths and they know how to use their strengths to deliver wins to everybody they touch.

[00:54:44] And thank God I'm good at something.

[00:54:46] So I figured out I'm getting LinkedIn and prospecting and negotiating.

[00:54:51] And as a founder of a company, I know what I'm good at is getting out of the way and creating a culture.

[00:54:58] That's the best thing you can do.

[00:55:00] That's the best thing you can do.

[00:55:00] Yeah.

[00:55:02] Yeah.

[00:55:03] That's the best thing you can do.

[00:55:04] Steve Jobs said, I just hire people smarter than me.

[00:55:06] That's what he said.

[00:55:07] That's why he was successful.

[00:55:08] That's right.

[00:55:09] That's right.

[00:55:10] Is there anything that you wanted to hit on today, Alan, that we didn't touch?

[00:55:13] I feel like I could talk to you for hours.

[00:55:16] No, I mean, yeah, I can continue to talk, but I think we covered some great stuff for an hour.

[00:55:22] So, no, this was really good.

[00:55:23] This was enjoyable, guys.

[00:55:24] I really appreciate the invitation.

[00:55:26] I wanted to bring it back.

[00:55:27] Carson, any last questions before I let Alan do the big shout out and where we find his book, where we find his academy, and how we connect with him?

[00:55:35] I don't think so.

[00:55:36] So, I can't wait to go back and mine this episode for gold.

[00:55:39] I always like to go back and kind of pull the transcript.

[00:55:42] And there's a lot of really good stuff that came out of this, both from the – that's unique.

[00:55:46] I love it when we do episodes that have a lot of unique takeaways.

[00:55:49] And for this one, it was some of the body language pieces, the psychology around selling.

[00:55:55] I mean, there's whole episodes there.

[00:55:57] But then, frankly, what I took away the most is taking all these foundational fundamentals that have always been part of sales, but how do we fit them into what today's playing field looks like?

[00:56:09] And I think you've mastered that.

[00:56:11] Thank you.

[00:56:12] Absolutely.

[00:56:13] Can I – you know what?

[00:56:15] Carson, you know I don't do this very often.

[00:56:17] I want to highlight one thing.

[00:56:21] It was when I started COVID as well, I started going live.

[00:56:27] I started in a Facebook group and then moved it over to LinkedIn.

[00:56:30] And it was kind of the same concept.

[00:56:32] Like, hey, we need each other.

[00:56:34] What do we do with this thing?

[00:56:35] And then that evolved into my first live show and podcast where I was a solo host.

[00:56:43] And then over, you know, a year and a half later, Carson and I met.

[00:56:47] Tom and I had known each other.

[00:56:48] But Tom came on as a guest.

[00:56:50] Carson came on as a guest.

[00:56:51] We said, hey, the three of us could do this better.

[00:56:53] And here we are, 111 episodes later, a couple of different names we morphed.

[00:56:59] But I want to say, too, the reason – you know, I shifted fist bump into doing the live show and podcast production management and promotion because it's been so difficult for so many people to work on their personal brand on their own.

[00:57:18] Right?

[00:57:19] To pull out a phone and do a selfie video or write a post or anything like that.

[00:57:25] And whether you use us, anybody out there, or you just do it on your own, the concept of this show, what I love about it is we just spoke for an hour.

[00:57:36] And this video will get turned into the podcast so people can listen to it on the audio.

[00:57:43] It will get edited with our intro and our outro and our commercial and get published to YouTube.

[00:57:49] We'll create five to ten shorts of video shorts from all this that gets used for ongoing social.

[00:57:57] We'll take the transcripts and turn it into our LinkedIn newsletter, turn it into a blog that goes on our website, and those will get published.

[00:58:08] And, oh, and else am I missing?

[00:58:10] Oh, we'll take some of the clips.

[00:58:11] Sometimes we turn some of the shorts into our LinkedIn ads just to go promote the show and tell more people about who we are and what we do.

[00:58:19] As we talk more about this, LinkedIn, and I love your story, Alan, from 65 people to 15,000 in roughly five years, just by showing up and creating content.

[00:58:31] If you're not comfortable with anyone out there doing the selfie videos or writing posts or all that, look at the live shows and podcasts.

[00:58:39] They are one of the best ways to create your thought leadership and build your personal brand in a really easy way because you know what the three of us just did for the last hour?

[00:58:48] We hung out and had a great conversation, met a few people in the comments, laughed, learned, and now we're done and we're going to wrap this thing up.

[00:58:58] But the one-hour piece of content that we have is invaluable to my branding, the company's branding.

[00:59:06] It goes out for Carson's branding, Alan, we're going to give it all to you, like all of our shorts and everything we give to you.

[00:59:14] So, you know, I know that this whole LinkedIn thing gets difficult.

[00:59:17] I want to highlight, Alan, what you did was you went from 65 to 15,000 in five years just by showing up and being consistent.

[00:59:24] You cleaned up your profile, you published, you commented.

[00:59:27] Go ahead.

[00:59:28] I'm sorry.

[00:59:29] No, and the one piece of advice to do this, and I think this is what most people struggle with, especially when they start,

[00:59:35] is you don't have to be perfect.

[00:59:37] It's progress over perfection.

[00:59:39] Absolutely.

[00:59:40] Just make the video and put it up there.

[00:59:41] Nobody cares for the bells and whistles and all the technical stuff.

[00:59:45] I used to spend an hour trying to do one 60-second video, and I had a virtual friend of mine saying,

[00:59:53] just do it.

[00:59:54] Progress over perfection.

[00:59:55] You'll get better as you do it.

[00:59:56] And people actually like more authentic videos that may have a mistake or an um or whatever than something that's really polished and done that was like done in a studio.

[01:00:08] So just do it.

[01:00:09] Get it out.

[01:00:09] You'll get more comfortable.

[01:00:10] And that's what I did.

[01:00:11] And that's how I got to where I am.

[01:00:14] I love it.

[01:00:14] I'm going to say one last thing, and this is promotional.

[01:00:17] I apologize, everybody.

[01:00:18] But I just decided over the last several months that my mission in 2025 is to do this for companies.

[01:00:24] There are so many small B2B companies out there, you know, 10 million to 40 million.

[01:00:30] And this personal branding thing is just, I know I need to up my LinkedIn game, but this scares the crap out of me.

[01:00:37] I think companies should be doing these live shows and podcasts and these casual conversations to the point that Fistbump is offering 10 people a free live show and podcast.

[01:00:47] I want to get 10 more companies that we're doing this with.

[01:00:51] If you're interested, ping me on LinkedIn.

[01:00:53] I'll give you the details.

[01:00:55] But it's getting our mic master program.

[01:00:58] I'm sorry, our mic starter program, which is two shows a month.

[01:01:02] We manage, we produce, we promote because I believe so much in this and I just want more companies getting their shows out there.

[01:01:09] Obviously, it's going to help us with more of a portfolio.

[01:01:14] But if you're out there listening and this is something, if you ping me, I'd love to give you all the details on it.

[01:01:20] Now, I'm going to shut up.

[01:01:21] Alan, forgive me for that.

[01:01:23] I never promote Fistbump.

[01:01:24] Fistbump pays for all this.

[01:01:25] That's a great offer.

[01:01:26] I love it.

[01:01:27] But I can vouch for the value.

[01:01:29] You know what's funny, Brandon?

[01:01:30] And we haven't talked about this because I just started doing it.

[01:01:33] But keep in mind, I'm just a seller and a sales leader and I work for a big company.

[01:01:38] I started doing some podcast shows, just kind of going in, recording, and then sharing these things out in newsletters with some of our partners.

[01:01:46] And finding some of the executives.

[01:01:48] We just hopped on, had a conversation.

[01:01:51] It was very, you know, like Alan, what you said earlier was super valuable around when you know your stuff and you make it conversational, that's what takes it to the next level.

[01:02:03] I've interviewed prospects on shows.

[01:02:05] And, you know, these are things that I just do on, I'll hop on a Teams meeting, hit record, publish it.

[01:02:11] It doesn't have to be perfect.

[01:02:13] It's conversational.

[01:02:14] And at the end of the day, what do my customers want to hear?

[01:02:17] They don't want to hear from me.

[01:02:18] They want to hear from each other.

[01:02:20] They want to build community.

[01:02:21] They want, you know, valued references.

[01:02:23] And so if you're interviewing a customer or a partner about something that they're passionate about, and then you can take that content and material.

[01:02:30] And as Brandon just said, it lives in so many different ways.

[01:02:33] You can package that up, put it in a newsletter, get it out, passively educate the masses.

[01:02:38] People are going to engage.

[01:02:39] And these are the types of things that can make that drawbridge come down for you.

[01:02:44] Okay.

[01:02:45] Good stuff.

[01:02:45] Alan, we're going to want you to come back.

[01:02:48] Hopefully you're willing.

[01:02:50] But before we wrap up, can you tell everybody what's the best way to get in touch with you, your website, where to go buy your book?

[01:03:00] It's pretty easy.

[01:03:00] Just go to the 7SecretSalesAcademy, the number 7SecretSalesAcademy.com.

[01:03:05] And from there, you can get my book on Amazon.

[01:03:08] You can fill out a form to reach out to me.

[01:03:11] You can say hello.

[01:03:14] That's the easiest place to find me.

[01:03:15] So the7SecretSalesAcademy.com.

[01:03:20] The7SecretSalesAcademy.com.

[01:03:21] Perfect.

[01:03:22] And for everyone on the podcast, it'll all be in the notes, in the show notes with links.

[01:03:26] So you can just click.

[01:03:27] You don't even have to remember.

[01:03:28] That'll be down in there.

[01:03:29] Carson, we might be pushing one of our longest episodes.

[01:03:34] One of.

[01:03:34] But the longest is still Donald Kelly.

[01:03:36] It was an hour and 10 minutes.

[01:03:38] We got an hour.

[01:03:40] Oh, and we started a little late, but we're right up there.

[01:03:42] So Alan, thank you so much again for joining us.

[01:03:46] Andrew, Simon, Butch, Bob, everybody that was in the comments, thank you so much for joining

[01:03:52] us.

[01:03:52] And Carson, this is episode 111.

[01:03:56] I think it was up there in one of the best.

[01:03:58] Do you want to wrap us up and take this out?

[01:04:00] No doubt about it.

[01:04:01] Thank you, everyone, for being on.

[01:04:02] Thank you, Alan.

[01:04:03] And until next time, everyone, happy modern selling.

[01:04:06] See you.

[01:04:13] Thank you for joining us today on Mastering Modern Selling.

[01:04:17] If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe for more insights.

[01:04:21] Connect with us on social media and leave a review to help us improve.

[01:04:25] Stay tuned for our next episode, where we will continue to uncover modern strategies

[01:04:29] shaping today's business landscape.

[01:04:31] Learn more about Fistbump in our concierge service at GetFistbumps.com.

[01:04:35] Mastering modern revenue creation with Fistbump, where relationships, social, and AI meet

[01:04:40] in the buyer-centric age.